# God save America **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 22, 2003, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452 "2003-12-22T14:27:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/41 "2003-12-23T14:28:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*When the president of a nation makes a public speech in function as president of that nation, he does so as (eventually chosen) representative of all the citizens of that nation speaking to all the citizens of that nation. > That excludes in my opinion adding sentences or words who refer to his personal life from which religion is part. > > I can add here that this stubborn repeated “God bless A…” used by every president I know off only adds to the impression that the US isn’t a secluar nation to begin with and secondly that God should bless “the US only”. > > I find it ignorant and arrogant both for presidents to use these words in public speeches and during public appearences. > > Salaam. A \*\* A couple of points - First, please name an instance of a US President asking God to bless the US **only**. Failure to do so will be interpreted as an admission that you pulled it out of your ass. Second, a good third or more of your posts are excoriations of the “US-ers” for not understanding Islamic/Arab culture, and condemning us for our actions in light of that lack. So where exactly do you get off condemning US culture, of which you are not a part and of which, to say the least, you neither understand nor appreciate? Third, Merry Christmas, Opal! Regards, Shodan PS - > [@](#): > > Besides, why would any God bless a country that was originally set up without the slightest mention of the almightly. Well, not exactly. The document originally setting up the USA was the Declaration of Independence, which makes mention of people being “endowed by their Creator” with rights. Yes, I know it doesn’t have the force of law, but that is mostly the point. We can invoke the blessing of God on our country and our endeavors without becoming a theocracy. Most of us believe in God; most of us want God to help and to guide us. So we ask Him to, as did most of our Founding Fathers. - S. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/42 "2003-12-23T14:32:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ravenman \* > \*\*I have noticed that Bush occasionally throws in a variation: “May God _continue_ to bless America.” That grates on my ears. \*\* Me, too. It presumes we’re already blessed. And if this is what it’s liked when we **are** blessed… ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/43 "2003-12-23T14:38:15Z")
Shodan, My comment was about how it comes across outside the USA, not meaning: “Arab or Muslim outside only”. There is no adding of “only” needed for giving this impression. And while giving a comment may automatically hold “condemnation” into it in your way of giving comments, that doesn’t necessarely mean that you can project that mindset onto others present on this message board. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/44 "2003-12-23T14:58:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*Shodan, > > My comment was about how it comes across outside the USA, not meaning: “Arab or Muslim outside only”. There is no adding of “only” needed for giving this impression.\*\* Same objection. You aren’t Spanish, Italian, French, German, Russian, Chinese, Japanese, British, Brazilian, etc. Yet you are speaking on behalf of cultures to which you do not belong and do not understand, while condemning the US for doing the same. Why? > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aldebaran \* > \*\*And while giving a comment may automatically hold “condemnation” into it in your way of giving comments, that doesn’t necessarely mean that you can project that mindset onto others present on this message board. > > Salaam. A \*\* You have claimed that the phrase “God bless America” is “ignorant” and “arrogant”, and justifies non-Americans in assuming that American culture is backwards and evil. But now you are claiming that this is **not** “condemnation”. OK, **Aldebaran** - your posts are arrogant and ignorant. They should be used to justify the conclusion that Arabic and Islamic culture is backwards and evil. But I am not condemning you. Stop twisting what I say! Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/45 "2003-12-23T15:07:31Z")
Why doesn’t GWB end his updates on military progress in Iraq with “Allah bless Iraq”? I’ll tell you why. It’ll offend a huge constituency that believes that the US is the only place the president should be asking for a blessing. It’s all politics to appease narrow-gate theologians that believe that only Conservative Christians who speak English in America are on God’s side. Why do you think the US Churches send out so many missionaries? There is a large number of Americans that believe the USA is the best and God, being the best, must have a special place in his White Old Man’s heart for the good ol’ USA. If you get a chance, look up the teeshirts which spell it out clearly. Red White and Blue with the following logo: [JesUSAves](http://www.kevinstees.com/jesusaves.html) Be afraid. Be very afraid. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/46 "2003-12-23T15:22:02Z")
I think I’m going to order a few thousand of these convincing items and let them be distributed in Arab streets. Question of educating those dumb Arabs for their own good, insh’allah… One should also distribute them immediately in all over Iraq. Question of making it finally and absolute clear to those dumb Iraqis that the US isn’t there to get a firm hold on their natural resources, but to save them. (They should learn that once and for all, it’s about time. So pitty thousands are already killed and can’t be informed anymore about that) Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/47 "2003-12-23T15:26:56Z")
A looked a bit further on that remarkable website… Besides the US-flag-including items, they have also some rather sadistic inspired items, like “His pain is your gain” and “Fit for a king”… Which make me wonder a bit… But that is something to create an other thread about 🙂 Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/48 "2003-12-23T15:28:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JS Princeton \* > \*\*Why doesn’t GWB end his updates on military progress in Iraq with “Allah bless Iraq”? > \*\* Perhaps you were aware that “Allah” is the Arabic for “God”. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JS Princeton \* > \*\*I’ll tell you why. It’ll offend a huge constituency that believes that the US is the only place the president should be asking for a blessing. It’s all politics to appease narrow-gate theologians that believe that only Conservative Christians who speak English in America are on God’s side. > \*\* Isn’t it funny, then, that so many Presidents, from both parties, used the same phrase? Let me see if I understand - you allege that the only thing stopping George Bush from speaking positively about Islam is that he will offend his constituencies. Is that right? [I think you might be mistaken there.](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010917-11.html) > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JS Princeton \* > \*\*If you get a chance, look up the teeshirts which spell it out clearly. Red White and Blue with the following logo: > > [JesUSAves](http://www.kevinstees.com/jesusaves.html) > > Be afraid. Be very afraid. \*\* So the basis for your assertions is something you read on a T-shirt. Hmmmm… Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/49 "2003-12-23T16:11:40Z")
Hehe…I half suspect those t-shirts are more closely related to [this](http://www.theonion.com/3949/top_story.html) than to serious reality. ---
**Author:** ![Futile\_Gesture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f05b48/32.png) [@Futile\_Gesture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Futile_Gesture)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/50 "2003-12-23T22:21:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BK \* > \*\*Asking God to save the queen is not silly because she is the head of the Church of England. As far as the Anglican Church is concerned she is God’s representitive on Earth and it is presumably in his interest to keep her alive. \*\* Well so far God is running up close to a 100% failure rate . To date all save one head of the Anglican Church has died. So it _is_ a dumb phrase. ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/51 "2003-12-24T01:07:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JS Princeton \* > \*\*Why doesn’t GWB end his updates on military progress in Iraq with “Allah bless Iraq”? > > I’ll tell you why. It’ll offend a huge constituency that believes that the US is the only place the president should be asking for a blessing.\*\* Yep, you’ve honed in on it like a laser. That’s the _only reason_ why Bush doesn’t end his speeches that way. He _wants_ to, but he’s afraid of offending that all-powerful “huge constituency”.\*\* > [@](#): > > It’s all politics to appease narrow-gate theologians that believe that only Conservative Christians who speak English in America are on God’s side.\*\* Yep, that’s what narrow-gate theologians believe, all right. Liberal Christians, English-speaking Britons, Conservative Jews, Christians in other countries–none of them are on God’s side, according to those narrow-gate theologians. \*\* > [@](#): > > There is a large number of Americans that believe the USA is the best and God, being the best, must have a special place in his White Old Man’s heart for the good ol’ USA.\*\* Well, of course. Anyone who likes the United States is racist and believes God is white. Thank you for pointing this out to us. We bow to your superior morality. ---
**Author:** ![TitoBenito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2acd7d/32.png) [@TitoBenito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TitoBenito)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/52 "2003-12-24T02:00:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by BK \* > \*\*Asking God to save the queen is not silly because she is the head of the Church of England. As far as the Anglican Church is concerned she is God’s representitive on Earth and it is presumably in his interest to keep her alive. \*\* No offense but that is really silly, much sillier than god bless america. ---
**Author:** ![Declan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@Declan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Declan)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/53 "2003-12-24T02:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ace309 \* > \*\*Well, it’d be kind of presumptuous to ask God to save Canada. \*\* We asked , he said no Declan ---
**Author:** ![pothead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecb155/32.png) [@pothead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pothead)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/54 "2003-12-24T02:58:25Z")
It may be true that the President’s are making use of their First Amendment right to the freedom of religion and speech, and although its acceptable as an argument, its a bit shaky, since during an official press conference or speech, the President is an extension of the executive branch of the U.S. government, not an individual. You may be familiar with the Pledge of Allegiance no longer being required in public schools because it has the word ‘God.’ This matter seems pretty trivial considering the last time I took the pledge was in elementary school, and I face the word ‘God’ far more times on official government documents every day of my life. U.S. Treasury notes and coins are laden with the word ‘God.’ When I asked my history teacher, she responded that one doesn’t _have_ to use Treasury notes. While I could surely use one of my many credit cards or checks without ever touching a dollar bill, the fact remains that the U.S. Department of the Treasury issues notes with a flagrant use of the word ‘God.’ > [@](#): > > Well, not exactly. The document originally setting up the USA was the Declaration of Independence, which makes mention of people being “endowed by their Creator” with rights. Yes, I know it doesn’t have the force of law, but that is mostly the point. We can invoke the blessing of God on our country and our endeavors without becoming a theocracy. Most of us believe in God; most of us want God to help and to guide us. So we ask Him to, as did most of our Founding Fathers. The Declaration of Independence set up exactly nothing. It was as its name suggests, a declaration of independence- basically a declaration of war and rebellion and a justification of such actions. The Declaration of Independence preceeds the Constitution and the Bill of Rights- the documents that allow for the division of church and state, so for all it matters, it could’ve quoted the Bible, created a theocratic government among the colonies, and then been sequentially dissolved to be replaced by the Articles of Confederation, and we would still be in the same position we are now. ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/55 "2003-12-24T16:50:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > Isn’t it funny, then, that so many Presidents, from both parties, used the same phrase? Oh, yes. The humor is not lost on me. The point of the matter is there is a large constituency of people all over the political spectrum who are interested in hearing the president reaffirm their American Chauvanism. It’s a phenomenon that is well documented and seems to follow along various social class and educational lines in this country. If you don’t believe me, look at some Annenberg poll data. > [@](#): > > Let me see if I understand - you allege that the only thing stopping George Bush from speaking positively about Islam is that he will offend his constituencies. Is that right? Nope. Didn’t say that at all. It is in GWB’s interest to speak positively about Islam but it is NOT in his interest to say “Allah Bless Iraq”. Period. The rest is simply beating a dead straw horse. > [@](#): > > So the basis for your assertions is something you read on a T-shirt. Nope. An example does not an assertion make. Perhaps if you paid a little closer attention? Nah, that’d be asking too much. ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/56 "2003-12-24T16:58:47Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jklan_ > That’s the _only_ reason why Bush doesn’t end his speeches that way. I did not say it was the _only_ reason. That’s your attempt to put words into my mouth. Thanks, but I can speak for myself. > [@](#): > > Anyone who likes the United States is racist and believes God is white. Thank you for pointing this out to us. We bow to your superior morality. Wow, you’re certainly good at distributing my middles. Thank you, it’s refreshing to see people construct their own fallacies from what I write. God bless the USA and nobody else! ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/57 "2003-12-24T17:28:25Z")
**Aldebaran,** I know I’m really gonna regret asking this, but What’s so radically different between “God Bless America,” and “In the name of Allah, the Compasionate, the Merciful?” ---
**Author:** ![Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a587f6/32.png) [@Freddy\_the\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freddy_the_Pig)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/58 "2003-12-24T17:51:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JS Princeton \* > **There is a large number of Americans that believe the USA is the best and God, being the best, must have a special place in his White Old Man’s heart for the good ol’ USA.** When you play the tired old racism card in a thread where it has no conceivable relevance, you have to expect that your middles will get distributed. ---
**Author:** ![JS\_Princeton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JS\_Princeton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JS_Princeton)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2003, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/59 "2003-12-24T22:03:17Z")
> [@](#): > > When you play the tired old racism card in a thread where it has no conceivable relevance, you have to expect that your middles will get distributed. a) Christianity as practiced my many in the school I was describing does have a historical racist bent. Look up Christian Identity religions for an example. God _is_ pictured as an “Old White Man” in many depictions. That’s the way it goes. Sorry. b) I am glad you have enlightened me to situations where logical fallacies suddenly become acceptable argumentation. Here I had thought that they were problematic, but I guess when you disagree as heartily as you do with me then it becomes acceptable. Thanks, I remain forever in your debt. ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2003, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452/60 "2003-12-25T02:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > a) Christianity as practiced my many in the school I was describing does have a historical racist bent. Look up Christian Identity religions for an example. God is pictured as an “Old White Man” in many depictions. That’s the way it goes. Sorry. They taught Christian Identity in your school? Man, that is f\*\*\*ed up. Oh, I see, you are drawing parallels where none exist: Kids in your school who were Christians were white. Christian Identity groups (which are, by definition racist, white-supremacist assholes) are white. Ergo, Christians are racist. > [@](#): > > I am glad you have enlightened me to situations where logical fallacies suddenly become acceptable argumentation. Mr Goose, meet Mr. Gander. Mr. Pot, I’d like to introduce you to Ms. Kettle. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-save-america/220452.md?page=4)