# God was looking out for some, not others? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2001, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643 "2001-09-14T17:53:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/1 "2001-09-14T17:53:40Z")
I hear people saying things like “God was looking out for him when he decided to take another flight/didn’t go to work Tuesday”, or similar things, and it makes me wonder about the appropriateness of saying things like this. To say God was looking out for the people that could have been killed and weren’t presumes that God was _not_ looking out for the people that _did_ get on the flight/go to work and were killed. I am very uncomfortable with this idea (that God was only looking out for the ones that weren’t killed), and I think people who have lost loved ones would be, too. Am I reading this wrong? Am I missing something here? (Mods, please move this thread if not in the right forum. I had a heck of a time trying to figure out where to put it. Thanks.) ---
**Author:** ![Podkayne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/edb3f5/32.png) [@Podkayne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Podkayne)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/2 "2001-09-14T17:57:08Z")
Same ol’ same old. “We are grateful to God for sparing our house from the tornado!” [sup]Nevermind that our neighbors lost everything.[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![Chubbs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/47e85d/32.png) [@Chubbs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chubbs)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/3 "2001-09-14T18:03:51Z")
I think he is all around, observing. He made it so people can control their own destiny, their own paths. It is people who take peoples lives it is people who heal people, it is people that comfort people. God is there after all is said and done, at the end of the path. ---
**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/4 "2001-09-14T18:30:31Z")
I am no theologian, just your average run of the mill guy, but here’s my take. A very old theological argument, but an important one is: If God is good, why does he allow evil to happen? Evil is necessary to insure free will. If He took away all evil and sin, mankind would be without any choices to make. No temptation = no decisions = no free will. Additionally, death is necessary for life to exist. It is a painful fact to realize, especially in a time of such tragedy, but it is true just the same. God gives life and takes life with equal compassion, but we as mortals do not have the capacity to grasp his reasoning. Because of our limited primate intellect, we tend to anthropomorphasize Him. We want to believe that he always does what **we** consider good. If something good happens we give him credit for it. We want to believe that he never does what **we** consider bad or evil. When these things happen we place the cause elsewhere. No wants to believe heresy. I’m stealing from a stand-up comedian whose name escapes me here. When a team wins a football game, you frequently here such statements as: “I thank the Lord Almighty for making this possible”. But when they lose, you never hear: “We would have taken this game if Jesus didn’t make me fumble” - **Beeblebrox** * * * There is a theory which states that if ever anyone discovers exactly what the Universe is for and why it is here, it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. There is another theory which states that this has already happened. ---
**Author:** ![jonfromdenver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/82dd89/32.png) [@jonfromdenver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jonfromdenver)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/5 "2001-09-15T04:43:39Z")
i think the emphasis is on how God **was** looking out for some, rather than **not** looking out for others. we should be thankful for these stories of survival, even if they are overshadowed by mourning. God’s purpose can’t be seen by us, so we can’t exactly judge it. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/6 "2001-09-15T06:49:07Z")
When the Oklahoma City bombing took place, I remember hearing all sorts of tales of people who were in or near the blast, but who were still alive “because my guardian angel protected me.” I remember thinking: **What a waste of angelic manpower!** I mean, there must have been close to a **hundred** people in the building who didn’t die in the blast. That means there had to have been nearly a hundred guardian angels out there, all at the same time, shielding these people from harm. And their timing was impeccable. The angels **had** to have known that the blast was coming, in order to be able to shield their charges so well. So then, why the hell couldn’t they have just sent **one** angel with a goddamn pair of wire cutters into that van parked out front, and had said angel disable the bomb **before** it went off?! Then nobody would have died, and the other hundred guardian angels could take the day off. Come on, Heaven, couldn’t you have just spared **four** lousy guardian angels last Tuesday morning?! All they would have had to do would be to disable the airliners’ engine-starter circuits before they taxied away from their terminals, and the World Trade Center would still be intact. ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/7 "2001-09-15T06:56:11Z")
For some people, it was their time. For others, it wasn’t. It’s absurd to say, “Well, God should have saved them ALL.” You can only make that assertion if you share in God’s omniscience. If you don’t, then you can’t claim to know exactly what God _should_ have done. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/8 "2001-09-15T07:06:01Z")
Chubbs wrote: > [@](#): > > I think he is all around, observing. He made it so people can control their own destiny, their own paths. It is people who take peoples lives it is people who heal people, it is people that comfort people. What difference is there between a God that does not interact with the Universe in any way, and no God at all? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 8:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/9 "2001-09-15T08:04:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*What difference is there between a God that does not interact with the Universe in any way, and no God at all? \*\* Well, if there weren’t any difference, we wouldn’t be having all the creation vs. evolution debates, now would we? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/10 "2001-09-15T16:12:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Chubbs wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > I think he is all around, observing. He made it so people can control their own destiny, their own paths. It is people who take peoples lives it is people who heal people, it is people that comfort people. > > What difference is there between a God that does not interact with the Universe in any way, and no God at all? \*\* There’s a huge difference between saying “God made thing such that people can control their own destiny” and “God does not interact with the universe in _any way_.” The former does not rule out any interaction whatsoever, and so the former does not automatically imply the latter. In other words, God can allow people to control their own destiny, while also choosing to interact on occasion. It’s like a father allowing a child to choose his own path in growing up. He can help out as he feels is necessary, but would not help out to the point of preventing the child to mature. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/11 "2001-09-15T16:18:33Z")
“Mr.Smith, why did you let your child get hit by that car?” “I could have pulled him to safety, but what kind of father would I be if I didn’t let my son learn lifes lessons on his own?” ☹ ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/12 "2001-09-15T19:00:37Z")
**Again** wid da father figures! Sheesh! Freud would have a field day. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/13 "2001-09-15T19:12:16Z")
I have always thought that people who say things like “there but for the grace of God go I” are really saying “see, I’m more favored by God than that guy.” Which I also think is usually followed by the thought “because I am obviously more deserving.” I also believe “grace” is another word for “whimsy” in that particular phrase. Yes, I know. I am going to get my ass flamed off for that one. ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/14 "2001-09-15T19:27:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Czarcasm \* > \*\*“Mr.Smith, why did you let your child get hit by that car?” > “I could have pulled him to safety, but what kind of father would I be if I didn’t let my son learn lifes lessons on his own?” > > ☹ \*\* False analogy. God knows when a person’s time is up. An earthly father would not, and so must choose to save a life if it’s at all possible. Moreover, if we’re to talk about God interacting with the universe, this is obviously _not_ limited to life-and-death situations, so that analogy is decidely specious. Besides, what kind of a world would we have if God were to intervene every single time someone’s life is endangered? A drunk husband could point a gun at his wife and fire, confident that God would stop the bullet from killing her. It would mean that a joyriding teenager could drive at breakneck speed toward a hapless pedestrian, trusting that God would snatch the pedestrian out of his way. Personal responsibility would mean **nothing** in a world like that. ---
**Author:** ![JubilationTCornpone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee59a6/32.png) [@JubilationTCornpone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JubilationTCornpone)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/15 "2001-09-15T19:29:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LifeOnWry \* > **I have always thought that people who say things like “there but for the grace of God go I” are really saying “see, I’m more favored by God than that guy.” > Which I also think is usually followed by the thought "because I am obviously more deserving."** Bull. By definition, grace is something that you absolutely do **not** deserve. Some people could conceivably think as you say, but not if they understand the concept of grace. ---
**Author:** ![LifeOnWry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/96bed5/32.png) [@LifeOnWry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LifeOnWry)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/16 "2001-09-15T19:38:07Z")
> [@](#): > > By definition, grace is something that you absolutely do not deserve. > > Some people could conceivably think as you say, but not if they understand the concept of grace. And I have stated that I do not understand the concept of grace. My statement above is that I also don’t think many of the people who SAY that do either. I often perceive self-righteousness in the statement. I am willing to admit that I may be wrong – I do NOT know the mind of God. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/17 "2001-09-15T19:41:18Z")
Jubiliation said: > [@](#): > > God knows when a person’s time is up. Um, being **God** , wouldn’t that be pretty much up to Him? I mean, if He wanted that person’s time to be up, it would be, and if not, it wouldn’t be. > [@](#): > > An earthly father would not, and so must choose to save a life if it’s at all possible. The earthly father could just as easily say, “His time was up” when not rescuing the boy. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/18 "2001-09-15T20:10:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beeblebrox \* > Evil is necessary to insure free will. If He took away all evil and sin, mankind would be without any choices to make. No temptation = no decisions = no free will. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but what “choice” did the people in the WTC or Pentagon or (mostly) on those planes have? They all met their judgments, and they were all the same, no matter what choices they may have made in life. They were all killed, the righteous and sinners alike. > [@](#): > > Additionally, death is necessary for life to exist. We all die, no matter how we lead our lives. Would life not exist if we were all immortal? True, we also do not have the capacity for judging God’s ways - but we can also see that the world as it is looks the same as one in which there is no God taking an interest in it. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/19 "2001-09-16T01:12:19Z")
The only people who had “free will” in this disaster would be the hijackers. The way I see it, there are a few options with God, if he exists as defined by his followers: 1. God could not have stopped it. Then God’s not omnipotent. I can accept this as a valid reason, although I’m sure many theists would not. 2. God did not want to stop it. Free will, God’s plan, whatever. I find this indifference appalling, perhaps worse than the outright malevolence of causing it to happen. Besides, if this god truly stays out of human affairs, why bother to pray to him that a loved one survives this? He doesn’t change his plan. 3. God has his own secret reasons why he didn’t stop it, which we can never comprehend. If our eternal salvation is largely dependent on believing in this deity, why make him so unintelligible? The problem with the “secret reason” is it’s based on the assumption that there is an existing omnibenevolent deity. You and I get an apartment. We’re told by our neighbors we have a terrific landlord. But the place is a total pit. Nothing works, roaches and rats are all over the place, the ceiling and walls are crumbling. We try to call the landlord and leave messages. He never returns them. Do we assume “evil landlord”, “no landlord”, or “good landlord who works in ways we cannot understand”? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/20 "2001-09-16T02:04:48Z")
ElvisL1ves wrote: > [@](#): > > Maybe I’m misunderstanding you, but what “choice” did the people in the WTC or Pentagon or (mostly) on those planes have? They all met their judgments, and they were all the same, no matter what choices they may have made in life. They were all killed, the righteous and sinners alike. Isn’t it obvious? God arranged for all the worst sinners in the nation to all be in the World Trade Center together that morning so he could hasten the arrival of all their eternities in Hell at the same time. Proof of this? Why, most of the people that worked in the World Trade Center were probably connected with the banking industry, and we all know that the banking industry is secretly controlled by a Jewish conspiracy, and everyone knows that God hates the Jews. :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643.md?page=2)