# God was looking out for some, not others? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 14, 2001, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643 "2001-09-14T17:53:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Dale\_The\_Bold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/81 "2001-09-19T22:01:57Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by jab1 \* \*\* > [@](#): > > Why isn’t it heaven? Why did God bother to create Earth in the first place if Heaven is our **real** home? Why didn’t God just put us all into Heaven in the first place? \*\* I’d say it’s because God created people with free will so they would love Him by choice. He could have given us paradise and we’d love God _for_ His generosity, but I think He wanted something more genuine than that. If we go through trials on earth and still love Him, then He knows it’s real. Kind of like a friend giving you a crapsicle and you still call them a friend. I think God created Heaven and Hell because of our free will. Hell has to exist because of the fact that, as a byproduct of free will, some people suck, and they do so by choice. Therefore, earth is like one big test to see which you deserve. This is why we should never guess which people are going to heaven or hell, that’s not our decision to make. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_The\_Bold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/82 "2001-09-19T22:12:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Excuse me, but when someone gives up and quits, it **means** the experience was too much for him/her emotionally. It’s a rather weaselly tautology to claim that **everyone** who gives up **could** have “borne it” if they hadn’t given up. \*\* Giving up and quiting is a decision. Don’t tell me that someone “quits” out of someone else’s choice. There are plenty of people who many would say “should have” quit, but didn’t. There are people who have been handed a raw deal that would make any normal person throw in the towel. A lot of times people will be told that they will never walk again, and then they do. That happens when people don’t quit. It may take 50 years to get over something, but some people do it. The rest choose to quit. They were handed a raw deal that they could bear, but they chose not to because of their own pessimism, not because of God, or anyone else around them. No one ever fails until the moment they make that decision. And, no, I don’t have any Tony Robbins tapes. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/83 "2001-09-19T22:27:01Z")
> [@](#): > > I’d say it’s because God created people with free will so they would love Him by choice. He could have given us paradise and we’d love God for His generosity, but I think He wanted something more genuine than that. If we go through trials on earth and still love Him, then He knows it’s real. Kind of like a friend giving you a crapsicle and you still call them a friend. I think God created Heaven and Hell because of our free will. Hell has to exist because of the fact that, as a byproduct of free will, some people suck, and they do so by choice. Therefore, earth is like one big test to see which you deserve. This is why we should never guess which people are going to heaven or hell, that’s not our decision to make So you are saying that the mark of “true love” is if you treat someone like shit and they still come crawling back to you? That’s a highly disfunctional relationship. We gasp in horror and shock when we hear that a woman (or a man) was beat and eventually killed by an abusive spouse. “Why would they keep going back to someone who does that?” We ask each other. Yet you are applying that very same logic to God. “He shows his love to us by abusing us, and we return that love by allowing it!” Sorry, that’s not acceptable among us mere mortals, and it’s not acceptable for God either. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_The\_Bold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/84 "2001-09-19T23:28:38Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by pepperlandgirl \* \*\* > [@](#): > > So you are saying that the mark of “true love” is if you treat someone like shit and they still come crawling back to you? That’s a highly disfunctional relationship. We gasp in horror and shock when we hear that a woman (or a man) was beat and eventually killed by an abusive spouse. “Why would they keep going back to someone who does that?” We ask each other. > Yet you are applying that very same logic to God. “He shows his love to us by abusing us, and we return that love by allowing it!” Sorry, that’s not acceptable among us mere mortals, and it’s not acceptable for God either. \*\* I was talking about how people _can_ endure things _for_ God. If you want to use the “abuse” analogy it won’t work, yet you are applying the same logic to God. If you are getting abused, it’s not by God. If you think anyone can abuse you, and still love you, then you need a dictionary. Think of it this way. If Juliet had a moat of urine flowing around her home, she would get few dates. However, Romeo would swim through piss to get to her. He’s just that kind of guy. Juliet is not doing the act of pissing on Romeo, but Romeo _would_ swim through piss for her, not because of her. As it turns out, the story of Romeo and Juliet has no piss moat, but we can rest assured that he loved her anyway. he doesn’t necessarily have to endure it, but he would. Get it? God is not abusive, _people_ are corrupt. We blame God for the things He doesn’t prevent, but we give Him no credit for the things He does in the aftermath. What’s up with that? You seem to equate hardship with abuse. Shame on you for that. You really had to wrench my words to arrive at such a twisted conclusion. I hate to think what you’re going to conjure up next. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/85 "2001-09-19T23:50:46Z")
Dale The Bold wrote: > [@](#): > > If you are getting abused, it’s not by God. So God **isn’t** omnipotent, then. > [@](#): > > We blame God for the things He doesn’t prevent, but we give Him no credit for the things He does in the aftermath. What’s up with that? And how do you tell which of the things that happened in the aftermath were done by God, and which were done by ourselves or just plain “happened” due to sheer dumb luck? ---
**Author:** ![super\_head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@super\_head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/super_head)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2001, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/86 "2001-09-19T23:51:01Z")
Potential hijack, but heck, I didn’t start it. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dale The Bold \* > > I’d say it’s because God created people with free will so they would love Him by choice. He could have given us paradise and we’d love God _for_ His generosity, but I think He wanted something more genuine than that. Like loving him out of fear of eternal damnation? Tell you what, I’ll be happy to love him for his generosity when it becomes apparent - and I’ll loathe him for his idea of hell. > [@](#): > > If we go through trials on earth and still love Him, then He knows it’s real. Kind of like a friend giving you a crapsicle and you still call them a friend. I don’t have any friends that sit around thinking “Hmmm, maybe today I’ll kill Super\_Head’s dog and tell him about it. If he still likes me, what a pal!” I’m glad you’re not my friend. And I’m glad your god isn’t mine either. > [@](#): > > I think God created Heaven and Hell because of our free will. Hell has to exist because of the fact that, as a byproduct of free will, some people suck, and they do so by choice. Therefore, earth is like one big test to see which you deserve. Poppycock (what a great word). God could very well let people be horrible to each other, and then when they die, reveal himself and watch them beg for forgiveness. Then, in his omni-benevolence, he would say “Come on in, the door is open, and there’s a hot meal on the table.” But he doesn’t, does he? Who’s more forgiving - the all powerful being that forgives all without expectation of gratitude, or the all powerful being who shows how he truly has human pettiness and damns people for eternity? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/87 "2001-09-20T00:17:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dale The Bold \* > **If we go through trials on earth and still love Him, then He knows it’s real.** I thought God knew everything. Why would He test us to find out something He already knows? > [@](#): > > **Kind of like a friend giving you a crapsicle and you still call them a friend.** Maybe _you_ would still be friends with such an asshole, but I wouldn’t. > [@](#): > > **I think God created Heaven and Hell because of our free will. Hell has to exist because of the fact that, as a byproduct of free will, some people suck, and they do so by choice.** Being all-knowing, God would have known these people would choose to do evil even before He created them. Therefore, God would be responsible for what happened. It would also mean we don’t really have free will. > [@](#): > > \*\*Therefore, earth is like one big test to see which you deserve. This is why we should never guess which people are going to heaven or hell, that’s not our decision to make. \*\* Being an all-knowing God, He knew who was going where even before He said, “Let there be light.” There is no need for a test when the potential tester already knows the outcome. ---
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/88 "2001-09-20T00:50:42Z")
> [@](#): > > Your own example has the person renouncing Christianity, which means giving up. That person could bear that responsibility if they hadn’t given up and just quit like that. Do you really think God should lift a burden on someone who just renounced Him? I think not. Why should God put a burden on them in the first place? There very well may be a God, but why are (some of) you people so damn intent on making sure that everyone believes that he actually cares what’s going on down here? And even if he was, who do think he’d be helping some lady in Iowa that is scared and needs God to give her strength, or someone stuck in the rubble? It seems to me like the supporters of the theory that God will intervene now and again have egos as big as the God that they believe in. > [@](#): > > Why does everyone ask “Where is God?” only when something bad happens? When we have donations flowing in to the Red Cross, people giving blood, firefighters and police working overtime; people don’t ask where God is, because that’s where God is. Why are you attributing this to a supernatural being? It shouldn’t be hard to believe that it’s the _human_ spirit that’s at work. It’s ridiculous, God went to the fridge and 5,000 people got caught inside collapsing buildings, but to make it up he has people dig them out and give blood? I think it’s humans having compassion for other humans that has lead to donations of all sorts, the rescue work, etc. > [@](#): > > There are people who have been handed a raw deal that would make any normal person throw in the towel. A lot of times people will be told that they will never walk again, and then they do. That happens when people don’t quit. It may take 50 years to get over something, but some people do it. The rest choose to quit. They were handed a raw deal that they could bear, but they chose not to because of their own pessimism, not because of God, or anyone else around them. So if someone can’t walk it’s _their_ fault? The reason they can’t walk is because they’re quitters, and not because of neurological damage or some other kind of disease? I’m sure there are a lot of people out there that would just love to know that if they hadn’t “quit” they could be dancing around right now. If this isn’t what you mean I suggest that you clear it up _real_ quick. If you did mean it the way it sounded then you are as dumb as you sound. And since you seem to believe in supernatural things, just remember, karma’s a bitch. ---
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/89 "2001-09-20T00:55:17Z")
My post above was directed at **Dale the Bold**. ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/90 "2001-09-20T07:57:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dale The Bold \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by jab1 \* > > \*\*Why isn’t it heaven? Why did God bother to create Earth in the first place if Heaven is our **real** home? Why didn’t God just put us all into Heaven in the first place? \*\* > > I’d say it’s because God created people with free will so they would love Him by choice. He could have given us paradise and we’d love God _for_ His generosity, but I think He wanted something more genuine than that.\*\* Another way to understand it might be that we _did_ have heaven on Earth - called Eden. When Adam and Eve, rebelled against God, they were thrown out into the world, and pain and suffering were the result. Even if you understand the Creation story as metaphor rather than fact, then the message is the same - once, humans and God had a really intimate relationship (Eden), but humankind chose to go their own way and the relationship soured (earth). God longs to restore that relationship (heaven) but many people will continue to rebel tell God to “shove off and leave me alone” and will eventually get thier wish (hell). Gp ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/91 "2001-09-20T12:26:47Z")
Nice metaphor. God creates two creatures. He makes them immortal, doesn’t give them a sense of right and wrong, creates a beautiful tree with lots of beautiful fruit, makes a specific point of telling them not to go near said tree, puts an evil creature much smarter than they are to talk them into eating the fruit of the tree, then sits back and waits for the inevitable to happen. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/92 "2001-09-20T13:35:43Z")
Actually, Czar, the serpent (devil,etc.) wasn’t evil when created. he (or it) turned that way. So theres an example of free will, at least. ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/93 "2001-09-20T19:44:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grimpixie \* > **Another way to understand it might be that we _did_ have heaven on Earth - called Eden. When Adam and Eve, rebelled against God, they were thrown out into the world, and pain and suffering were the result.** But people in Heaven won’t ever rebel against God? Why? Do people lose their free will when they enter the Pearly Gates? Is there no escape from Heaven? > [@](#): > > **God longs to restore that relationship (heaven) but many people will continue to rebel tell God to “shove off and leave me alone” and will eventually get thier wish (hell).** So God doesn’t always get what He wants? I thought He was suposed to be all-powerful. And this notion of God having a longing for a relationship implies that He has needs, _human_ needs. ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/94 "2001-09-20T22:29:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grimpixie \* > \*\*So God doesn’t always get what He wants? I thought He was suposed to be all-powerful. And this notion of God having a longing for a relationship implies that He has needs, _human_ needs. \*\* He’s a [programmer](http://www.cs.bgu.ac.il/~omri/Humor/Creation.html) after all. ---
**Author:** ![PotLuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@PotLuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PotLuck)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/95 "2001-09-20T23:13:51Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by pepperlandgirl:_ > **So you are saying that the mark of “true love” is if you treat someone like shit and they still come crawling back to you? That’s a highly disfunctional relationship. We gasp in horror and shock when we hear that a woman (or a man) was beat and eventually killed by an abusive spouse. “Why would they keep going back to someone who does that?” We ask each other. > Yet you are applying that very same logic to God. “He shows his love to us by abusing us, and we return that love by allowing it!” Sorry, that’s not acceptable among us mere mortals, and it’s not acceptable for God either.** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Dale The Bold:_ > **I was talking about how people _can_ endure things _for_ God. If you want to use the “abuse” analogy it won’t work, yet you are applying the same logic to God. \ You seem to equate hardship with abuse. Shame on you for that. You really had to wrench my words to arrive at such a twisted conclusion. I hate to think what you’re going to conjure up next.** I don’t think the analogy is all that far off. Compare the phrase “God-fearing Christian” to “husband-fearing wife”, and you can see the parallel pepperlandgirl was trying to draw. The latter is the object of derision and/or pity. **In some cases** , people’s love for God is sustained by his threat of eternal damnation; “love” garnered by bullying and intimidation is abuse. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2001, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/96 "2001-09-20T23:38:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dignan \* > Well, I’m sure **Jubilation** and I could agree (along with the Rev. Falwell and Robertson) that the reason why God allowed this to happen is the fault of the Godless abortionists and gays in the country. Falwell recanted the comment and apologized for it. Heck, he even said it was stupid. Done on, IIRC, ABC News this morning. ---
**Author:** ![PotLuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bbce88/32.png) [@PotLuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PotLuck)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/97 "2001-09-21T00:55:19Z")
Falwell’s [apology](http://abcnews.go.com/sections/GMA/GoodMorningAmerica/GMA010920Falwell_sorry.html) was no apology – he says he “misspoke”. If he said “liberry” instead of “library”, he would have misspoken. In an even bigger example of hypocrisy: _On the 700 Club, Robertson said he totally concurred when Falwell finished his controversial comments. Since then, Robertson’s Christian Broadcasting Network released a statement calling Falwell’s remarks “severe and harsh in tone and, frankly, **not fully understood** ” by Robertson at the time._ Yeah, right. They both said the attack was a retaliatory act by God – and now it’s suddenly not. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/98 "2001-09-21T01:19:46Z")
Cajo: You and I obviously watched a different news program this morning. I am definitely no fan of that flaming bigot Falwell; however, he did say that he apologized for the comment and that it was wrong of him to blame those he blamed. ---
**Author:** ![Dale\_The\_Bold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/41988e/32.png) [@Dale\_The\_Bold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dale_The_Bold)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/99 "2001-09-21T04:04:17Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Cajo \* \*\* > [@](#): > > \*Compare the phrase “God-fearing Christian” to “husband-fearing wife”, and you can see the parallel pepperlandgirl was trying to draw. The latter is the object of derision and/or pity. > > **In some cases** , people’s love for God is sustained by his threat of eternal damnation; “love” garnered by bullying and intimidation is abuse. \*\* This is really the heart of all the confusion. The _phrases_ “God-fearing Christian” and “husband-fearing wife” only sound similar. Any bible scholar will tell you that the word “fear” in the original text referring to the “fear” of God, actually means something more along the lines of “reverence.” People aren’t supposed to cower before God, but be in awe and reverence of Him. God isn’t a bully, He’s our buddy. However, as was mentioned, mankind (in the time of Adam and Eve) betrayed God by their own free will. God may be all-knowing, but He gave us the option of free will. We basically said “hand’s off.” Mankind had a desire for the “knowledge of good and evil,” and sinned (the original sin) against God. So we now know good _and_ evil. So we can’t blame God that we have to go through the test on earth, that’s the fault of mankind. However, why would God make us so corrupt to begin with if He knew we’d screw it all up? Knowledge of evil is not really a bad thing since it shows us how to appreciate that which is good. In the beginning, people said “God is good,” but it meant nothing. After all, what is “good” when there is nothing in your world which is _not_ good. Therefore, God created us with flaws in our character so that we have the opportunity to overcome them. He didn’t make us flawed so that He could set us up to fail. A runner doesn’t win marathons by racing alone, there must be something to make it a challenge, someone to race against. Ideally everyone could please God, but He’s not going to force you and He’s not going to run the race for you. If He set everyone up to win, there is no race at all. The endurance happens by overcoming the corruption of mankind, and that was put in place by human beings, not by God. He allowed us to do that out of love, and the gift of free will. (Was God surprised when He reutrned to the garden to find Adam and Eve “eating the fruit?”). We desired free will, He granted it. We desired knowledge of evil, we got it. Now why all the complaining? Don’t go quitting this far into everything. ---
**Author:** ![Dignan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f07891/32.png) [@Dignan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dignan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643/100 "2001-09-21T05:11:13Z")
Hey **Monty** , why don’t you check the date of when I made that post. Thanks. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-was-looking-out-for-some-not-others/81643.md?page=6)