# "God willing, and the Creek don't rise" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 19, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783 "2010-08-19T20:07:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/1 "2010-08-19T20:07:21Z")
A Facebook friend of mine posted this etymology of the phrase “God willing, and the creek don’t rise.” > [@](#): > > Benjamin Hawkins, and the phrase would be correctly written as ‘God willing and the Creek don’t rise’. Hawkins, college-educated and a well-written man would never have made a grammatical error, so the capitalization of Creek is the only wa…y the phrase could make sense. He wrote it in response to a request from the President to return to our Nation’s Capital and the reference is not to a creek, but The Creek Indian Nation. If the Creek “rose”, Hawkins would have to be present to quell the rebellion. I believe that the phrase is somewhere in his preserved writings. While this sounds plausible, is it true? I’ve always thought the saying referred to, you know, and actual creek. (We had 8-10 inches of rain in these parts yesterday, so the creeks are rising.) ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/2 "2010-08-19T20:16:52Z")
[A few alternatives.](http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:Lord_willing_and_the_creek_don't_rise) I’ve always associated it with a moving body of water myself. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/3 "2010-08-19T20:27:57Z")
Hmm, thanks for the link. It looks like there is support for either interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/4 "2010-08-19T20:57:32Z")
Why would an educated man write “[anything] don’t rise”? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/5 "2010-08-19T21:05:38Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Why would an educated man write “[anything] don’t rise”? If you mean vs “doesn’t”, Creek is plural so “don’t” is correct. If you are referring to the contraction, I’ll leave that to more vigilant grammar/style nitpickers. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/6 "2010-08-19T21:14:39Z")
A lot of people have some funny notions about precisely what grammar is. Grammar is not the set of rules some set of stuffy old academes in an ivory tower say that people should use in speech; grammar is the set of rules that people actually do use in speech. And if speaking in colloquial dialect in many parts of the country (such as a politician who knows that everything he says will make its way to his constituents), then “the creek don’t rise”, referring to a small river, can be perfectly grammatical. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/7 "2010-08-19T21:29:34Z")
The argument against the story I posted in the OP is that apparently the phrase doesn’t (er, don’t) appear in the collected works of Benjamin Hawkins. So the claim that he capitalized the word Creek is unsupportable, apparently. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/8 "2010-08-19T22:06:19Z")
But as for the “Creek”…it was capitilized? If so, it may not refer to a small rural stream. It may refer to the Creek Indian tribe. And by _rise_, it woyuld mean _go to war._ As in _rise in rebellion_. The vernacular suggests the rural, & 19th Century America, so it might be possible. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/9 "2010-08-19T22:12:56Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > A Facebook friend of mine posted this etymology of the phrase “God willing, and the creek don’t rise.” > > > [@](#): > > > > Benjamin Hawkins, and the phrase would be correctly written as ‘God willing and the Creek don’t rise’. Hawkins, college-educated and a well-written man would never have made a grammatical error, so the capitalization of Creek is the only wa…y the phrase could make sense. He wrote it in response to a request from the President to return to our Nation’s Capital and the reference is not to a creek, but The Creek Indian Nation. If the Creek “rose”, Hawkins would have to be present to quell the rebellion. I believe that the phrase is somewhere in his preserved writings. > > While this sounds plausible, is it true? I’ve always thought the saying referred to, you know, and actual creek. > > (We had 8-10 inches of rain in these parts yesterday, so the creeks are rising.) I’m not sure I would trust an assessment of the import of capitalization from someone who doesn’t seem to know that the words “nation’s capital” do not need to start with upper-case letters just because they appear in the middle of a sentence. Also, this is from the same era where people would talk about things like “a Bill waf prefented in the Congrefs afsembled,” so we shouldn’t put much stock in their typographical flourifhes. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/10 "2010-08-19T22:57:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Hawkins, college-educated and a well-written man would never have made a grammatical error, I find this notion offensive, and I ain’t gonna stand for it. Besides, is it really an error if it’s intentional? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/11 "2010-08-19T23:14:52Z")
I thought this was about [Spike Lee’s new HBO movie](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587373/). ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/12 "2010-08-19T23:19:39Z")
Why does Creek being capitalized mean it’s plural? ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/13 "2010-08-19T23:43:26Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Why does Creek being capitalized mean it’s plural? First, the implication is that being capitalized means it refers to the Creek Indian Nation. After that, I guess it depends on what you think it’s short for. Creek Indians? Pluran. Creek Nation? Singular. How did I get involved in a grammar thread? ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2010, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/14 "2010-08-19T23:46:21Z")
It has nothing to do with the _Creek_ Indians. The phrase has morphed over possibly hundreds of years, quite often in dialect speech, to what many are familiar with from the 1950s onward. Stephen Goranson, one of the premier word/phrase finders over at the American Dialect Society found what(I think) is the earliest variant(so far)–1851. > [@Stephen Goranson](#): > > “‘Feller-citizens–I’m not ‘customed to public speakin’ before such > highfalutin’ > audiences…Yet here I stand before you a speckled hermit, wrapt in the > risen-sun counterpane of my popilarity, an’ intendin’, Providence permittin’, > and the creek do n’t rise, to ‘go it blind!’…” > > [read do n’t or don’t, not clear] > > p. 447 (?) The Doolittle Delegation, to a “Woman’s Rights Convention.” by Miss > L. Virginia Smith, Graham’s American Monthly Magazine of Literature, Art, and > Fashion v. 38 June 1851 . If anyone can give a cite in the works of Benjamin Hawkins(1754-1816), then I might change my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/15 "2010-08-20T13:38:04Z")
This thread is the first time I’ve seen “creek don’t rise” in that phrase. Growing up, I heard, “God willing and the creeks don’t rise” a lot, but never singular. ---
**Author:** ![limegreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@limegreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/limegreen)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/16 "2010-08-20T14:43:21Z")
Growing up, I always heard “Good Lord willin’ and the creek don’t rise”, but my folk are the epitome of rednecks. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/17 "2010-08-20T16:18:50Z")
[quote=“Gary “Wombat” Robson, post:15, topic:550783”] This thread is the first time I’ve seen “creek don’t rise” in that phrase. Growing up, I heard, “God willing and the creeks don’t rise” a lot, but never singular. [/QUOTE] I bet this is post facto “nicing up” an ungrammatical idiom to make it more acceptable. For the record, though, I’ve never heard or read it with a plural. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_Robson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gary_robson/32/3448_2.png) [@Gary\_Robson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_Robson)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/18 "2010-08-20T19:37:40Z")
It is to be expected that sayings like this will vary from state to state, town to town, family to family. Who knows? It’s been a while. I may be misremembering. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Angel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d26b3c/32.png) [@Johnny\_Angel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Angel)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/19 "2010-08-20T19:47:33Z")
I always heard it as “God willing and the _crick_ don’t rise…” ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [August 20, 2010, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783/20 "2010-08-20T19:53:30Z")
> [@Johnny\_Angel](#): > > I always heard it as “God willing and the _crick_ don’t rise…” For some people, that’s the pronunciation of “creek,” not actually a variant word. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god-willing-and-the-creek-dont-rise/550783.md?page=2)