# God
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [August 16, 2012, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643 "2012-08-16T02:56:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/41 "2012-08-17T02:42:03Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> Where does Abraham suffer any consequences for having chosen incorrectly?
> Abraham, after all, did get to argue with God - see the Sodom story. But he always obeyed. Contrast Moses who didn’t obey to the letter on something less important and didn’t get to cross the Jordan because of it.
> Maybe today we’d like this to be a “don’t just follow orders” story, but that isn’t how it was written.
God wasn’t going to punish Abraham for failing the test. God’s going to accept that Abraham’s only human and isn’t perfect. Abraham was conflicted between the duties of obeying God and the moral imperative not to kill. He chose incorrectly but he chose what he thought was the right action.
Moses (and Aaron) didn’t have any excuse like that. When the Israelites began complaining about God, Moses and Aaron were afraid to speak up and defend God. But they had no moral confusion for what they did as Abraham had. They knew what their moral duty was but were afraid to do it.
Therefore, Moses’ and Aaron’s sin was more serious than Abraham’s. Abraham failed to figure out what he was supposed to do. Moses and Aaron knew what they should do but were afraid to do it.
There’s also the strange incident with Zipporah at the inn. It’s a confusing text but God clearly states he is there to kill somebody. But Zipporah stands up to God and God stops. As I said, it’s one of the least clear passages in the Bible. But the sequence of a divinely ordained death being averted by human defiance and the human defiance being accepted to God is fairly clear.
Again, the significance of this incident was perhaps added by later writers who said this passage was supposed to show the importance of circumcision. But I think the significance of the incident may again have been misunderstood. I think it’s possible Zipporah passed the test Abraham had failed. Zipporah knew what God was saying was wrong and she refused to accept it.
---
### Author:  [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/42 "2012-08-17T05:23:44Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> What I take is the requirement for salvation is to know God, and believe that God has the power to save you from this world, that latter part is to me what the scriptural definition of believing is.
>
> [snip]
>
> Abraham gave up the free will decision at a early time and surrendered that to Satan (a deal with the devil). Satan was calling Abraham on that deal and Abraham had to comply unless Satan released him. What was that deal? I believe it had to do with Abraham and Sarah wanting a child so bad that they asked ‘any god’ to give them a child - Satan took them up on it - for a price.
>
> How did God rescue Isaac. **God could not act on behalf of Abraham due to the deal** , but God could act on behalf of Isaac . . .
If God doesn’t even have the power to intercede on one’s behalf after making a deal with Satan, then how could one believe God “has the power to save you from this world”?
---
### Author:  [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/43 "2012-08-17T05:50:31Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Totally out of character for God; he’s all about obedience to him. And note that if you really believe in an afterlife and take it seriously (and presumably the god that made that afterlife would do so), then there just isn’t that big a deal about killing.
Abraham presumably didn’t believe in an afterlife, though.
---
### Author:  [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/44 "2012-08-17T05:55:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#):
>
> Baal, god of child sacrifice
Baal is just a honorific, used for a great number of gods (some of whom, possibly, had children sacrificed to them). There is no single “Baal, god of child sacrifice”.
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### Author:  [@lurking\_guest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lurking_guest)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/45 "2012-08-17T06:18:20Z")
… seems to be a ‘smart’ person…but is not.
**Der Trihs** , his mother or father, his employer, his friends…his neighbors…his advanced College instructors…seem unable to get ‘through’ to him.
Is he 60? Is he 16? Who can tell?
All we know is that he values his own judgments against any other value that could be called God.
Outstanding! (Lets me think he is closer to 16 Y/O than 60 Y/O.)
**Der Trihs,** prove you have Knowledge far greater than any Scientist (many of whom believe in God wholeheartedly) and I shall believe all of your coherent and incoherent BS.
John Polkinghorne and John Lennox are two physicists that come to mind.
John Lennox, for instance, has 3 (THREE!) Doctorates, and he not only believes in Christ, but feels sorrow for those who don’t. And you have?
Hate. I guess.
A mysoginistic view of women, I guess.
A need **not** to be bound by any code, moral value, religion, jingoistic or hegemonic value of any Country on the face of the Earth.
Good for you.
What a sophisticate.
---
### Author:  [@Steken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steken)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/46 "2012-08-17T06:28:12Z")
Reported.
---
### Author:  [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/47 "2012-08-17T06:28:29Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> God wasn’t going to punish Abraham for failing the test. God’s going to accept that Abraham’s only human and isn’t perfect. Abraham was conflicted between the duties of obeying God and the moral imperative not to kill. He chose incorrectly but he chose what he thought was the right action.
>
> Moses (and Aaron) didn’t have any excuse like that. When the Israelites began complaining about God, Moses and Aaron were afraid to speak up and defend God. But they had no moral confusion for what they did as Abraham had. They knew what their moral duty was but were afraid to do it.
That is not why Moses and Aaron were not allowed into Israel.
> [@](#):
>
> Numbers 20:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
This was after God told Moses to speak to the rock to get water, but Moses struck the rock twice instead.
I especially like this passage as a refutation to those who say God no longer shows up because having evidence of his existence somehow reduces ones faith. Here he commanded Moses to do something that would be stronger evidence than what Moses did, and Moses was punished for it.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/48 "2012-08-17T06:49:00Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#):
>
> Is he 60? Is he 16? Who can tell?
Well, unless I started posting on this board when I was 9 years old, you can be pretty sure I’m not 16…
---
### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/49 "2012-08-17T06:51:35Z")
> [@Voyager](#):
>
> That is not why Moses and Aaron were not allowed into Israel.
>
> This was after God told Moses to speak to the rock to get water, but Moses struck the rock twice instead.
>
> I especially like this passage as a refutation to those who say God no longer shows up because having evidence of his existence somehow reduces ones faith. Here he commanded Moses to do something that would be stronger evidence than what Moses did, and Moses was punished for it.
That’s not the way I read it.
> [@](#):
>
> In the first month the whole Israelite community arrived at the Desert of Zin, and they stayed at Kadesh. There Miriam died and was buried.
>
> Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. They quarreled with Moses and said, “If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the Lord! Why did you bring the Lord’s community into this wilderness, that we and our livestock should die here? Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink! ”
>
> Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord said to Moses, “Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.”
>
> So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
>
> But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”
>
> These were the waters of Meribah, where the Israelites quarreled with the Lord and where he was proved holy among them. (Numbers 20)
The way I see it the issue wasn’t that Moses struck the rock instead of speaking to it. The issue was that the crowd of Israelites were complaining about God and Moses and Aaron didn’t say anything in God’s defense.
When God told Moses he wouldn’t see the promised land, he said _“This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.”_ (Deuteronomy 32:51)
---
### Author:  [@Latro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Latro)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/50 "2012-08-17T09:49:55Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#):
>
> **Der Trihs,** prove you have Knowledge far greater than any Scientist (many of whom believe in God wholeheartedly) and I shall believe all of your coherent and incoherent BS.
>
> John Polkinghorne and John Lennox are two physicists that come to mind.
>
> John Lennox, for instance, has 3 (THREE!) Doctorates, and he not only believes in Christ, but feels sorrow for those who don’t. And you have?
Next time bring argument.
This attitude is typical amongst a large proportion of those that believe.
“Who are you to question [enter person of **Authority** here] !!!”
Here’s a clue you really, really, should pick up: People with [scare quotes] \*\*\*Authority \*\*\*[/scare quotes] are not superbeings. They are still people. People that can be wrong. People who make mistakes.
It is the argument that counts.
Of course I will trust an known expert on biblical history more than someone off the street, like a mathematician.
In stuff pertaining to the bible, plus he will still have to able make his case.
He will have to **prove** me wrong!
---
### Author:  [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 9:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/51 "2012-08-17T09:56:20Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> They died and rotted, just like everyone before and since.
>
> No, it wasn’t. Regardless of whether or not it was God, Satan, or anything else telling him to do so. “I was just following orders” isn’t an excuse for committing an act of blatant, unmitigated evil like that regardless of who the order-giver is.
Without God–i.e. an authority external to this world–there isn’t any such thing as evil, pure or otherwise.
You could characterize Abraham’s behaviour as psychotic, or socially unacceptable, but the concept of right and wrong against absolutes, and the concept of good and evil, are nonsensical without God.
That humans are intelligent or sentient does not create good and evil, and the conscious destruction of a human is no more innately “evil” than the conscious destruction of a cockroach or a carrot. Good and evil were concepts invented by religion, and in the modern world we have tried to port them over to a secular world. However the secular concept of evil is entirely different, representing a cumulative opinion for managing society, and not an absolute standard.
From a judeo-christian perspective, the absolute here–the biblical lesson–is that blind obedience to God is more important than a human’s analysis of what is appropriate. I do not argue that this is not nutty, but basically you don’t get to argue something is good or evil once you get rid of God.
You’re left with a bit of a catch 22. The thing that makes Abraham’s sacrifice “wrong” is based on absolutes grounded in the concept of God and religion. Get rid of God and it’s not wrong anymore; just nutty or socially maladjusted or something.
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### Author:  [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/52 "2012-08-17T10:13:23Z")
“Evil” is a stronger and more concise word than “socially maladjusted” or any other description of a dysfunctional approach to intra- or inter-groups relationships. I’ll give him a pass for using a philosophically loaded word for brevity’s sake.
That being said, I believe that any authority figure, deity or otherwise, who orders one of its followers to kill his own son with no better reason given than “Because I Say So” fits both the theological and social meanings of “evil.”
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/53 "2012-08-17T10:15:50Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> Without God–i.e. an authority external to this world–there isn’t any such thing as evil, pure or otherwise.
> You could characterize Abraham’s behaviour as psychotic, or socially unacceptable, but the concept of right and wrong against absolutes, and the concept of good and evil, are nonsensical without God.
God or gods are simply irrelevant to the question of whether or not something is evil or not.
[ul]
[li]Just because a god says something is right or wrong doesn’t make it so. Obeying an evil god is an evil act.[/li]
[li]Being powerful or “outside this world” doesn’t make a creature any more an authority on morality.[/li]
[li]God as typically depicted is _vastly morally inferior_ to the average human being; not something to be followed even if it was real.[/li]
[li]If there is an absolute right or wrong it’s right or wrong regardless of the opinions of any gods.[/li]
[li]Regardless of whether or not they exist, there’s no agreement on what any gods want and no way to get their opinion on anything, so even if a god IS always morally correct we can’t get that information from them.[/li][/ul]
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> Good and evil were concepts invented by religion, and in the modern world we have tried to port them over to a secular world.
Oh, please. That’s just another example of the defenders of religion baselessly giving religion the credit for something.
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> However the secular concept of evil is entirely different, representing a cumulative opinion for managing society, and not an absolute standard.
The religious concept of evil is less absolute than the secular version, not more. At least the secular version tends to be partly based on facts; religious “morality” is based on fantasy. On baseless religious claims that the believers themselves can’t even agree on.
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> From a judeo-christian perspective, the absolute here–the biblical lesson–is that blind obedience to God is more important than a human’s analysis of what is appropriate. I do not argue that this is not nutty, but basically you don’t get to argue something is good or evil once you get rid of God.
>
> You’re left with a bit of a catch 22. The thing that makes Abraham’s sacrifice “wrong” is based on absolutes grounded in the concept of God and religion. Get rid of God and it’s not wrong anymore; just nutty or socially maladjusted or something.
On the contrary. In order to meaningfully talk about right and wrong it is that absolute authority of God that must be _rejected_, not _accepted_. Mindlessly following the orders of someone else, god or not is _amoral_, not moral.
---
### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/54 "2012-08-17T10:31:07Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#):
>
> “Evil” is a stronger and more concise word than “socially maladjusted” or any other description of a dysfunctional approach to intra- or inter-groups relationships. I’ll give him a pass for using a philosophically loaded word for brevity’s sake.
I look at it this way. There are moral/ethical codes that are built on a few basic principles; people’s lives have value, compassion is good, needless suffering is bad, freedom is desirable etc. There are also incompatible systems built on principles such as other people’s lives having no value, mercy is a weakness, cruelty is acceptable, compassion is pointless, etc. It doesn’t really matter if they are “absolute” in some objective sense. I think that the former is desirable, and anyone who follows the latter system is by nature my enemy and likely to cause me harm if they can. You can call them “good” and “evil”, “ethical system A” and “ethical system B”, or “Norgism” and “Morgism”; names don’t change anything. Some ethical systems are simply incompatible with each other; you might as well call them “good” and “evil” instead of twisting yourself into knots coming up with euphemisms.
All this wringing of hands over whether or not some particular set of morality is “absolute” is pointless. We have no way of knowing what that “absolute morality” is, so we can’t follow it if we wanted to. And there’s no guarantee we’d want to follow it if we knew what it was; I note that people always assume that any “absolute morality” will just happen to match their morality, but if it’s really absolute and independent of humans there’s no reason to assume it wouldn’t be something totally alien and undesirable to us.
Personally, I don’t buy the idea of absolute morality in the first place. Right and wrong is heavily tied to human nature, not physical laws.
---
### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/55 "2012-08-17T10:50:04Z")
lurkingguest, you are out of line
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### Author:  [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/56 "2012-08-17T10:51:54Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#):
>
> … seems to be a ‘smart’ person…but is not.
>
> . . .
This little tirade has no business in Grat Debates. It is not pertinent to the topic and it violates the spirit of the “no personal attacks” rule.
Knock it off.
[/Moderating]
---
### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/57 "2012-08-17T11:37:14Z")
> [@Skammer](#):
>
> Demilade,
>
> Have you read Hebrews? The author of Hebrews lists a lot of OT heroes, how they responded to God’s will, and says that they were “justified by faith” even though Christ had not yet come into the world. And that Christ’s saving atonement applied not only to his contemporaries, but to all humankind past, present and future. Just as you are justified by your faith, so too were the ancients.
>
> As for Abraham - I don’t know if I can give a satisfactory explanation other than Abraham knew that the command was from God, and he trusted God enough to follow through with faith that He knew what He was doing. Maybe Abraham guessed (or hoped) that God would stop him at the last minute, or raise his son from the dead, or whatever – remember that God had promised him innumerable descendants. There’s just a lot in the story that we are not told.
How do you explain that Jesus is quoted as saying to the woman.“I have only come for the lost sheep of Israel?”
---
### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/58 "2012-08-17T11:44:45Z")
> [@lurking\_guest](#):
>
> … seems to be a ‘smart’ person…but is not.
>
> **Der Trihs** , his mother or father, his employer, his friends…his neighbors…his advanced College instructors…seem unable to get ‘through’ to him.
>
> Is he 60? Is he 16? Who can tell?
>
> All we know is that he values his own judgments against any other value that could be called God.
>
> Outstanding! (Lets me think he is closer to 16 Y/O than 60 Y/O.)
>
> **Der Trihs,** prove you have Knowledge far greater than any Scientist (many of whom believe in God wholeheartedly) and I shall believe all of your coherent and incoherent BS.
>
> John Polkinghorne and John Lennox are two physicists that come to mind.
>
> John Lennox, for instance, has 3 (THREE!) Doctorates, and he not only believes in Christ, but feels sorrow for those who don’t. And you have?
>
> Hate. I guess.
>
> A mysoginistic view of women, I guess.
>
> A need **not** to be bound by any code, moral value, religion, jingoistic or hegemonic value of any Country on the face of the Earth.
>
> Good for you.
>
> What a sophisticate.
Faith is just that…Faith is not fact, and many intelligent people have faith, many do not. Faith is not based on intellegence, but desire or hope!
---
### Author:  [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/59 "2012-08-17T11:48:25Z")
> [@Latro](#):
>
> Next time bring argument.
> This attitude is typical amongst a large proportion of those that believe.
>
> “Who are you to question [enter person of **Authority** here] !!!”
>
> Here’s a clue you really, really, should pick up: People with [scare quotes] \*\*\*Authority \*\*\*[/scare quotes] are not superbeings. They are still people. People that can be wrong. People who make mistakes.
>
> It is the argument that counts.
> Of course I will trust an known expert on biblical history more than someone off the street, like a mathematician.
> In stuff pertaining to the bible, plus he will still have to able make his case.
> He will have to **prove** me wrong!
There is still the fact that the Bible, like all writings, teachings, thinkings are of human beings. It is a matter of what human we choose, or desire to believe!
---
### Author:  [@wayward](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wayward)
#### Post date: [August 17, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/god/631643/60 "2012-08-17T13:11:39Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#):
>
> Without God–i.e. an authority external to this world–there isn’t any such thing as evil, pure or otherwise.
Er, no. Without God, humanity collectively is the ultimate source of morality in the universe, and we get to decide what “evil” means. Yeah it’s utterly subjective, but so are a lot of things.
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