# Goddammit Catholic Church, you just won't learn **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 30, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934 "2010-08-30T00:07:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/1 "2010-08-30T00:07:58Z")
Finally one of the sex abuse victims of a priest (actually a bishop, but WTF) had the gumption to record meetings with a church official about his abuse. And it is not pretty. This was in Belgium, and the rapist was Belgian Bishop Robert Vangheluwe, and the victim was his nephew, who was apparently abused from age 5 to 18. The church official was Cardinal Godfried Danneels, a fuckin’ prince of the RCC, and the head of the Belgian church. These meetings weren’t years ago – the first was in **April** of this year, long after the Church had made all kinds of promises of openness, and punishing the offenders and blah blah blah. What we find is a cardinal just trying to keep the lid on, and totally unwilling to pursue the case through the church hierarchy to punish or otherwise discipline the bishop. Just like old times. Here are [two](http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/08/29/leaked-danneels-tapes-with-catholic-sex-abuse-victim-make-for-sad-reading/) [stories](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/30/world/europe/30belgium.html?_r=1) about it. This was part of the exchange: > [@](#): > > “The bishop will resign next year, so actually it would be better for you to wait, the cardinal told the victim. “I don’t think you’d do yourself or him a favor by shouting this from the rooftops.” > > The cardinal warns the victim against trying to blackmail the church, suggests he accept a private apology from the bishop and not drag “his name through the mud.” > > The victim responded: “He has dragged my whole life through the mud, from 5 until 18 years old,” and asks, “Why do you feel sorry for him and not for me?” > [@](#): > > At one point, Danneels ducks and weaves trying to fend off the victim’s pleas to inform the Church hierarchy about Vangheluwe’s misdeeds. He says he has no authority over the bishop, only the pope does. When the victim suggests Danneels arrange a meeting with the pope, the cardinal gives the flip reply: “The pope isn’t that easy to reach.” A little later, he says: “I don’t think you’d do yourself or him a favor by shouting this from the rooftops.” My favorite bit: > [@](#): > > At another point, Danneels suggests the victim admit his guilt and ask for forgiveness. “Who do I have to ask forgiveness from?” the surprised man asks. And the cardinal has known about this for a long long time: > [@](#): > > A retired priest, the Rev. Rik Devillé(, said he had tried to warn Cardinal Danneels about the bishop’s abuse of his nephew 14 years ago, but was berated by the cardinal for doing so. The victim is now 42 years old, and hasn’t been publicly identified. and good on the Belgian press for keeping it that way. If there’s any good news out of this, it’s that the victim wouldn’t be swayed, and the bishop resigned within weeks, admitting he had abused a young man. Apparently, the discussions weren’t in English and there is not yet a good English language transcript, according to the author of one of the linked articles. I am also real tired of the pretense that all these parishes, dioceses, and whatnot are entirely separate entities. These abuses have come to light in place after place, year after year, and the church’s response is always the same. There has been a great deal of collusion at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/2 "2010-08-30T01:09:58Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Finally one of the sex abuse victims of a priest (actually a bishop, but WTF) had the gumption to record meetings with a church official about his abuse. And it is not pretty. > > This was in Belgium, and the rapist was Belgian Bishop Robert Vangheluwe, and the victim was his nephew, who was apparently abused from age 5 to 18. The church official was Cardinal Godfried Danneels, a fuckin’ prince of the RCC, and the head of the Belgian church. > > These meetings weren’t years ago – the first was in **April** of this year, long after the Church had made all kinds of promises of openness, and punishing the offenders and blah blah blah. What we find is a cardinal just trying to keep the lid on, and totally unwilling to pursue the case through the church hierarchy to punish or otherwise discipline the bishop. Just like old times. > > Here are [two](http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2010/08/29/leaked-danneels-tapes-with-catholic-sex-abuse-victim-make-for-sad-reading/) [stories](http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/30/world/europe/30belgium.html?_r=1) about it. > > This was part of the exchange: > > > [@](#): > > > > “The bishop will resign next year, so actually it would be better for you to wait, the cardinal told the victim. “I don’t think you’d do yourself or him a favor by shouting this from the rooftops.” > > > > The cardinal warns the victim against trying to blackmail the church, suggests he accept a private apology from the bishop and not drag “his name through the mud.” > > > > The victim responded: “He has dragged my whole life through the mud, from 5 until 18 years old,” and asks, “Why do you feel sorry for him and not for me?” > > My favorite bit: > And the cardinal has known about this for a long long time: > > > [@](#): > > > > A retired priest, the Rev. Rik Devillé(, said he had tried to warn Cardinal Danneels about the bishop’s abuse of his nephew 14 years ago, but was berated by the cardinal for doing so. > > The victim is now 42 years old, and hasn’t been publicly identified. and good on the Belgian press for keeping it that way. If there’s any good news out of this, it’s that the victim wouldn’t be swayed, and the bishop resigned within weeks, admitting he had abused a young man. Apparently, the discussions weren’t in English and there is not yet a good English language transcript, according to the author of one of the linked articles. > I am also real tired of the pretense that all these parishes, dioceses, and whatnot are entirely separate entities. These abuses have come to light in place after place, year after year, and the church’s response is always the same. There has been a great deal of collusion at the very least. It’s past the time when all people of good conscience should start leaving, in droves. And start filing criminal charges both for the crimes AND the conspiracy to cover up the crimes. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/3 "2010-08-30T02:30:33Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It’s past the time when all people of good conscience should start leaving, in droves. And start filing criminal charges both for the crimes AND the conspiracy to cover up the crimes. But… they’ve reformed. And other people do it, too. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/4 "2010-08-30T02:41:51Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > It’s past the time when all people of good conscience should start leaving, in droves. And start filing criminal charges both for the crimes AND the conspiracy to cover up the crimes. You know, sometimes stating the obvious is very helpful. Yours is a bold statement, but I cannot see any way to argue the other case. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/5 "2010-08-30T02:49:16Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > You know, sometimes stating the obvious is very helpful. Yours is a bold statement, but I cannot see any way to argue the other case. You see no crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/6 "2010-08-30T02:59:04Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You see no crimes? Looked to me like he was agreeing. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/7 "2010-08-30T11:15:18Z")
Indeed. I got the impression Paul was complimenting Steve’s bluntness on the issue. I don’t know how Czarcasm read it. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/8 "2010-08-30T12:50:11Z")
I always found it sickening how these people seem to be above the law. If some other organization was doing this, would there ever be any question about going after both the accused and the people covering it up? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/9 "2010-08-30T13:15:41Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Indeed. I got the impression Paul was complimenting Steve’s bluntness on the issue. I don’t know how Czarcasm read it. Yes, I was agreeing. ---
**Author:** ![Cumberdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@Cumberdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumberdale)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/10 "2010-08-30T13:31:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Pope Benedict XVI strongly criticized atheism in a major document released Friday, saying it had led to some of the “greatest forms of cruelty and violations of justice” ever known. _[Breitbart News Network](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=d8t86d280&show_article=1)_ If it weren’t so sad, disgusting and pathetic, it would almost be comical. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/11 "2010-08-30T13:47:51Z")
> [@Revtim](#): > > I always found it sickening how these people seem to be above the law. If some other organization was doing this, would there ever be any question about going after both the accused and the people covering it up? Exactly how I felt. Throw the pedophiles in jail and those who covered up the crime as well. It’s even more disgusting that they justify covering it up, ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/12 "2010-08-30T14:05:12Z")
When it’s Muslims, you guys are all “Only some of them are evil! Of course they should build a mosque.” When it’s Catholics, it’s all “I don’t see how anyone can still be in that religion. It’s obviously evil.” The story happened in fucking Belgium. You know how many kiddie diddlers there are between here and there? Teachers, fire fighters, skeevy uncles, Pizza Hut cashiers? Or are they not important because they’re not part of a religion you hate? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/13 "2010-08-30T14:13:44Z")
> [@](#): > > At another point, Danneels suggests the victim admit his guilt and ask for forgiveness. “Who do I have to ask forgiveness from?” the surprised man asks. And now, a reading from the Book of Simpson, Chapter 20: 12 And it came to pass that HOMER, after leaving his only son Bart standing in the rain for hours, appeared and spake unto him, saying, 13 I know you’re mad at me right now, and I’m kinda mad too. I mean, we could sit here and try to figure out ‘who forgot to pick up who’ until the cows come home. But let’s just say we’re both wrong and that’ll be that. _Amen_. ---
**Author:** ![fjs1fs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9e8a1a/32.png) [@fjs1fs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fjs1fs)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/14 "2010-08-30T14:16:05Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > When it’s Muslims, you guys are all “Only some of them are evil! Of course they should build a mosque.” When it’s Catholics, it’s all “I don’t see how anyone can still be in that religion. It’s obviously evil.” > > The story happened in fucking Belgium. You know how many kiddie diddlers there are between here and there? Teachers, fire fighters, skeevy uncles, Pizza Hut cashiers? Or are they not important because they’re not part of a religion you hate? Slight difference, Chessic. Schools, Fire Depts, and Pizza Hut are not famous (infamous) for trying to cover up the sexual abuse committed by their employees. ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/15 "2010-08-30T14:17:53Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > When it’s Muslims, you guys are all “Only some of them are evil! Of course they should build a mosque.” When it’s Catholics, it’s all “I don’t see how anyone can still be in that religion. It’s obviously evil.” > > The story happened in fucking Belgium. You know how many kiddie diddlers there are between here and there? Teachers, fire fighters, skeevy uncles, Pizza Hut cashiers? Or are they not important because they’re not part of a religion you hate? The Catholic Church is one big top-down organization. The leader of that organization was up to his neck in the cover-up. None of that is true of Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/16 "2010-08-30T14:22:43Z")
> [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](#): > > > [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > > > Indeed. I got the impression Paul was complimenting Steve’s bluntness on the issue. I don’t know how Czarcasm read it. > > Yes, I was agreeing. In that case, I misread and I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Camus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ba8739/32.png) [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/17 "2010-08-30T14:23:15Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > When it’s Muslims, you guys are all “Only some of them are evil! Of course they should build a mosque.” When it’s Catholics, it’s all “I don’t see how anyone can still be in that religion. It’s obviously evil.” > > The story happened in fucking Belgium. You know how many kiddie diddlers there are between here and there? Teachers, fire fighters, skeevy uncles, Pizza Hut cashiers? Or are they not important because they’re not part of a religion you hate? Most of the ire appears to be directed towards the Catholic hierarchy and wondering when the laity will finally get sick of them and find greener pastures. But unlike Islam, which is as de-centralized as many Protestant sects, Roman Catholicism is absolutely centralized and hierarchical. The point that many posters are making or alluding to, particularly the OP, is that up and down the leadership hierarchy appears to be a tolerance for if not complicity in the molestation and sexual abuse that is further uncovered every year and in numerous places. Without even the appearance of moral authority, the Roman Catholic Church is just an ornate and increasingly anachronistic social club. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/18 "2010-08-30T14:24:17Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > When it’s Muslims, you guys are all “Only some of them are evil! Of course they should build a mosque.” When it’s Catholics, it’s all “I don’t see how anyone can still be in that religion. It’s obviously evil.” > > The story happened in fucking Belgium. You know how many kiddie diddlers there are between here and there? Teachers, fire fighters, skeevy uncles, Pizza Hut cashiers? Or are they not important because they’re not part of a religion you hate? The people making these decisions are Bishops and Cardinals. That is upper management in a single top down system. The Catholic Church is a very controlled organisation. These people are OK’d by and report to Rome directly. It’s a very different situation than a rogue Iman or priest. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/19 "2010-08-30T14:25:24Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > The story happened in fucking Belgium. You know how many kiddie diddlers there are between here and there? Teachers, fire fighters, skeevy uncles, Pizza Hut cashiers? Or are they not important because they’re not part of a religion you hate? I daresay any teacher’s union, fire department, or pizza franchise that engaged in systematic, decades-long obfuscation and cover-up of child rape perpetrated by its members would deserve an equal amount of opprobrium.\* Do you know of any? Skeevy uncles… well, they’ve always been a rather disorganized group. - Particularly if, out of the “other side of their mouth,” they continuously sermonized on the immorality of a vast encyclopedia of comparably harmless pecadilloes, with no apparent sense of irony or shame. As vast and powerful as the Catholic church is, it’s mind-boggling that they haven’t hired anyone savvy to counsel them on public relations. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2010, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934/20 "2010-08-30T14:36:19Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > When it’s Muslims, you guys are all “Only some of them are evil! Of course they should build a mosque.” When it’s Catholics, it’s all “I don’t see how anyone can still be in that religion. It’s obviously evil.” > > The story happened in fucking Belgium. You know how many kiddie diddlers there are between here and there? Teachers, fire fighters, skeevy uncles, Pizza Hut cashiers? Or are they not important because they’re not part of a religion you hate? This story also happened in Boston, and Chicago, and Philadelphia, and New York, and LA, and … [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddammit-catholic-church-you-just-wont-learn/551934.md?page=2)