# Goddamn you all, I'll probably vote for Obama--and hate it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 26, 2012, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352 "2012-06-26T15:17:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/81 "2012-06-27T04:12:57Z")
Opting out is totally a viable option. Just putting it out there. You don’t have to choose between a douche and a turd sandwich. Vote or die is a metaphorical campaign, not a literal one. It really is okay to give two middle fingers to a broken fucking system and stay at home (or at work) on election day. Some people freak out when I say I don’t vote. It’s not because I’m lazy (I am a lazy person, but not in this respect). I’d absolutely get out and pound the pavement and vote in support of a decent candidate. Unfortunately, pinko atheists in favor of gun control, marijuana for everyone, and who want to legalize gay-everything don’t have a shot at the Oval Office in the US’s religious climate. Until then, I’ll sit this one out. And the next one. And the next one. ---
**Author:** ![al27052](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/41988e/32.png) [@al27052](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/al27052)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/82 "2012-06-27T04:26:14Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > I was dubious, but willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. We invaded in March of 2003. “Mission Accomplished” was in May. I thought we’d be out of there soon. Seems I was mistaken. Your problem was that, while you thought you were voting for a President, you were _actually_ buying a bridge from Dick Cheney. A LOT of people bought that same damn bridge, same as you. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/83 "2012-06-27T04:31:24Z")
> [@rachelellogram](#): > > Unfortunately, pinko atheists in favor of gun control, marijuana for everyone, and who want to legalize gay-everything don’t have a shot at the Oval Office in the US’s religious climate. But how do you feel about the real important issues, like [HR 3593?](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr3593) ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/84 "2012-06-27T04:33:36Z")
> [@Kevbo](#): > > We can afford this because it is cheaper than what we have now. Unfortunately, given all the other parameters, especially a “strong military”…no we can’t. Not as its currently configured. I don’t understand why people think UHC is some kind of free ride just because other countries have it…did anyone ever wonder if the fact that European countries can “afford” to tax the shit out of their citizens for UHC because…they don’t have to pay for defense because the good old USA is “waiting in the wings”? Seriously…Canada, France, England, Germany…the “other” supposed “enlightened” Western civilized countries all have UHC and we don’t. Why is that? What are their taxes? Do THEY have a military that can project force across the globe to maintain order like we do? I don’t think so. Sure, if we forswore our military we could afford UHC. But as our budget currently stands…no fucking way we can afford both, and neither can the other countries that have it either. Hell, some of them are sinking fast in their own Euro debt despite not having a military to speak of. Where is the solution? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/85 "2012-06-27T05:01:32Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Unfortunately, given all the other parameters, especially a “strong military”…no we can’t. Not as its currently configured. I don’t understand why people think UHC is some kind of free ride just because other countries have it…did anyone ever wonder if the fact that European countries can “afford” to tax the shit out of their citizens for UHC because…they don’t have to pay for defense because the good old USA is “waiting in the wings”? Our version of health care costs more for worse service; UHC is cheaper. And we aren’t defending anyone, we are a thug nation; we have a large military so we can bully, threaten and swagger, not to protect anyone. They’d be idiots to trust us to protect them; we’d abandon or backstab them in an instant if it profited us, regardless of any treaties we’ve signed. They have a smaller military than us because in this day and age big militaries are white elephants. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/86 "2012-06-27T05:25:02Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Unfortunately, given all the other parameters, especially a “strong military”…no we can’t. Not as its currently configured. I don’t understand why people think UHC is some kind of free ride just because other countries have it…did anyone ever wonder if the fact that European countries can “afford” to tax the shit out of their citizens for UHC because…they don’t have to pay for defense because the good old USA is “waiting in the wings”? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but they are not entitled to their own facts. Health care expenditures per-capita are lower in Europe. Period, end of story. You can argue about the quality, the waiting time, whether it is fair, or other subjective things, but they spend less than we do. ---
**Author:** ![fumster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@fumster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fumster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/87 "2012-06-27T05:41:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Supreme Court has drawn a strong distinction between _people_ and citizens, because most of the constitution only mentions the latter. SCOTUS has only ever applied constitutional protections - other than those governing criminal proceedings - to citizens and legal aliens. The exception is the right of children to an education, since they are obviously blameless. That is ridiculous. The first amendment does not just apply to US Citizens and education is not a “right” in the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/88 "2012-06-27T06:06:32Z")
Ooof! Voted for Perot? You should have to draw a pie chart to show us why and how easy it was. 😃 I see your point though. Neither impresses me anymore, but I don’t see Romney as qualified at this particular time, budget wise. So do what the rest of us do: vote for the candidate you hate the least. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/89 "2012-06-27T08:10:34Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Sure, if we forswore our military we could afford UHC. But as our budget currently stands…no fucking way we can afford both, and neither can the other countries that have it either. Hell, some of them are sinking fast in their own Euro debt despite not having a military to speak of. Where is the solution? I’m not sure why you think this, because it’s patently untrue. Administrative and overhead costs eat up an enormous amount of what the US spends on healthcare. Insurance companies are fucking _shameless_ (I work for an insurance company, I know). It’s already been proven over and over again that universal health care would be cheaper than the US system. It doesn’t matter where the money comes from (whether taxes or out-of-pocket spending). Dollar for dollar, UHC is cheaper than US healthcare. Literally _everywhere_. Free enterprise is not the solution for healthcare; we’ve tried that, and it is failing. Free healthcare for everybody, with the option to buy private insurance for those who prefer it, is what works. ["What is uniformly true about universal health care systems is that they all spend less on medical care per capita than the US. The next nearest country in spending to us, France, spends 50% of what we do per capita while providing top notch care, possibly the best in the world.](http://scienceblogs.com/denialism/2012/02/14/more-evidence-that-universal-h/)" Additionally, out-of-control medical bills are a significant factor driving people to file for bankruptcy in the USA: “[A study done at Harvard University indicates that [medical expenses are] the biggest cause of bankruptcy, representing 62% of all personal bankruptcies.](http://finance.yahoo.com/news/pf_article_109143.html)” I’m prepared for you to move the goalposts, of course. Other than conceding, that’s really your only option at this point. I await your declaration that UHC provides worse care than the US medical system, or there’ll be a mass doctor-strike if we pay them less, or that what works in every other goddamn first world nation couldn’t _possibly_ work here–no way no sir no howdy! Although it would be nice if everyone could just look at the statistics and agree that the US healthcare system sucks donkey cunts. > [@Rysdad](#): > > But how do you feel about the real important issues, like [HR 3593?](http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/112/hr3593) _snicker_ ---
**Author:** ![dngnb8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/977dab/32.png) [@dngnb8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dngnb8)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/90 "2012-06-27T12:47:12Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > vote for the candidate you hate the least. You mean Robamaney? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 12:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/91 "2012-06-27T12:53:15Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Let him speak at Obama’ inauguration. Huh? ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/92 "2012-06-27T12:55:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > As a legal matter, it _will_ never happen. The Supreme Court has drawn a strong distinction between _people_ and citizens, because most of the constitution only mentions the latter. Uh, no, that’s completely false. > [@](#): > > SCOTUS has only ever applied constitutional protections - other than those governing criminal proceedings - to citizens and legal aliens. This is complete, and I mean COMPLETE, bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/93 "2012-06-27T13:13:40Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > … I don’t understand why people think UHC is some kind of free ride just because other countries have it…did anyone ever wonder if the fact that European countries can “afford” to tax the shit out of their citizens for UHC because…they don’t have to pay for defense because the good old USA is “waiting in the wings”? I’ve talked to many people, American and Eurpoean, about the European healthcare systems and the vast majority of them state that the European systems as providing FREE healthcare. Well, “free” healthcare certainly “sounds” better than something you have to pay for but the reality is that it’s not free. They are taxed to cover their healthcare. The money comes out of their paychecks and some government agency then decides how best to dole out those tax euros. I’m assuming that because the taxpayers never actually get their hands on their heathcare euros, they forget that they are the ones paying for it. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/94 "2012-06-27T13:23:17Z")
I don’t care how you vote. Minnesota is going to be won by Obama no matter what you do. If you want to piss your vote away and vote for a libertarian, knock yourself out. If The Second Half Of The Second Amendment is a factor in your voting, I don’t want your vote. If you’re concerned about Reverend Wright, I don’t want your vote. If you’re concerned about what Mormons believe, I don’t want your vote. If and when you focus on issues that truly matter, then you’ll come around and vote Democratic. If you don’t, I honestly don’t care. The worst you can do is reduce Obama’s margin of victory in MN by one vote. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyClueless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@MostlyClueless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyClueless)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/95 "2012-06-27T13:23:41Z")
> [@](#): > > You can make anyone’s religious beliefs sound absurd with very little effort You’d almost start to think there’s something inherently absurd about religion. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/96 "2012-06-27T13:27:46Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Well, “free” healthcare certainly “sounds” better than something you have to pay for but the reality is that it’s not free. There may or may not be some here who think it literally is free. I don’t see why you are focusing on them rather than the _last substantive poster right above you_ who mentioned that while not free it is cheaper. Is it not less expensive? Do you dispute that? Whence are the figures to dispute this? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/97 "2012-06-27T14:08:12Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > There may or may not be some here who think it literally is free. I don’t see why you are focusing on them rather than the _last substantive poster right above you_ who mentioned that while not free it is cheaper. Is it not less expensive? Do you dispute that? Whence are the figures to dispute this? If you would like to address the _last substantive poster right above me_, you are free to do so. I was commenting on **FoieGrasIsEvil** ’s post. If you have figures for whence “your” concerns are, go ahead and post them. ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/98 "2012-06-27T14:10:33Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > I don’t care how you vote. Minnesota is going to be won by Obama no matter what you do. If you want to piss your vote away and vote for a libertarian, knock yourself out. > > If The Second Half Of The Second Amendment is a factor in your voting, I don’t want your vote. If you’re concerned about Reverend Wright, I don’t want your vote. If you’re concerned about what Mormons believe, I don’t want your vote. If and when you focus on issues that truly matter, then you’ll come around and vote Democratic. If you don’t, I honestly don’t care. The worst you can do is reduce Obama’s margin of victory in MN by one vote. I’ve said before that my vote for president won’t matter. But remember, there are people in states other than Minnesota that read these boards. If you’d like to tell the rest of the Independent voters why you don’t think Obama wants their vote, please do. ---
**Author:** ![lance\_strongarm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/87869e/32.png) [@lance\_strongarm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lance_strongarm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/99 "2012-06-27T14:14:29Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > There may or may not be some here who think it literally is free. Do you really think there are that many people who are that naive out there? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352/100 "2012-06-27T14:20:59Z")
> [@Rysdad](#): > > What…someone couldn’t live and work in the US for 10 years? Of course someone could. However, since they wouldn’t have a Social Security number, they obviously wouldn’t be able to prove that they had paid sufficiently into the system to obtain benefits. > [@fumster](#): > > That is ridiculous. The first amendment does not just apply to US Citizens and education is not a “right” in the Constitution. Hence “most” of the constitution. Education is not a right in the Constitution. Equal protection _is._ The government doesn’t have to provide a free education, but if it does, it has to provide it everyone. > [@lance\_strongarm](#): > > This is complete, and I mean COMPLETE, bullshit. Feel free to elaborate. As a general matter, illegal aliens are typically entitled only to the protections stemming from the fifth, sixth and fourteenth amendments. Plyler v. Doe, 457 U.S. 202. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamn-you-all-ill-probably-vote-for-obama-and-hate-it/626352.md?page=6)