# Goddamnit, you idiots. Can't you leave ONE piece of pristine forest alone?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365 "2009-03-13T21:05:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/1 "2009-03-13T21:05:28Z")
So I’m taking my Ecology class caving next week, and I went up there yesterday to do some basic scouting. One of my favorite caves from back when I worked in the area used to be situated in the heart of a really beautiful forest. Gorgeous, huge trees, trillium sand other wildflowers everywhere. I’d sometimes drive up there after work, and if I wasn’t caving, just hang around in the woods, listening to the underground waterfall that cascades just inside the cave entrance. No more, people. The landowner has now logged the entire area all the way up to the cave mouth. It’s a wasted landscape made up of nothing but shattered trees and muddy ruts. Oh, and the obligatory four-wheeler trails. :mad::mad::mad: GodDAMN it. Can’t you fuckers just leave shit alone? You didn’t need the money, you greedy bastard. You moved here from out of state, and bought thousands of acres of property. I should have known something was up when I first went up there and saw you palletizing rocks that you’d taken off the mountain to sell to fucking Home Depot. Fuck you, and fuck all the raging Libertarian assholes who are going to inevitably reply, “It’s his land. Landowner rights are sacrosanct, blah blah blah horseshit.” ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/2 "2009-03-13T21:10:40Z")
He’s probably a good old boy conservationist - the type that has no use for something in the wild unless he can kill it or sell it. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/3 "2009-03-13T21:13:40Z")
Why didn’t you buy the land? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/4 "2009-03-13T21:13:43Z")
> [@Merijeek](#): > > He’s probably a good old boy conservationist - the type that has no use for something in the wild unless he can kill it or sell it. > > -Joe “I believe in Wise Use.” The capital letters are important. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/5 "2009-03-13T21:14:13Z")
I’m as upset as you are when land I love gets harvested or built on. That’s why I contribute to several non-profits that buy up land or development rights. It’s really a very simple value proposition. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/6 "2009-03-13T21:14:58Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Why didn’t you buy the land? Because I didn’t have the money to do so. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/7 "2009-03-13T21:17:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Fuck you, and fuck all the raging Libertarian assholes who are going to inevitably reply, “It’s his land. Landowner rights are sacrosanct, blah blah blah horseshit.” _shrug_ It’s his land. Do you not believe in private land ownership? I agree with the sentiment, and it seriously sucks when this happens…but if the land is privately owned then it’s privately owned. Why you feel this fact justifies a hearty ‘fuck you’ to someone pointing this out is beyond me. Perhaps some environmental group should have made a counter offer to the owner to buy the land equal to the offer he got to clear cut it. Conversely, they could always make an offer on the land now and replant. The land is probably worth significantly less now, and it will take time…but trees can regrow even in places that have been devastated as you describe. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/8 "2009-03-13T21:19:38Z")
As a libertarian, I have to say that it’s his land and land owner rights are sacrosanct. 😃 I also believe that using drugs, suicide, prostituion, ritualistic satan worship, and drinking rancid milk should all be legal, but that doesn’t mean any of them are necessarily a good idea. So yeah, if the guy bought a lot of land just to tear down the trees and go four-wheeling, it’s his right, but it doesn’t make him any less of an idiot for ruining a place I would have to imagine was quite beautiful. Chances are that there were plenty of other places he could have set up for four-wheeling or whatever else he would have wanted to do that wouldn’t have involved trashing a pristine spot. So, sure, I’m down with the pitting, just please leave us lonely little liberatarians out of it next time. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/9 "2009-03-13T21:24:01Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > _shrug_ It’s his land. Do you not believe in private land ownership? > > I agree with the sentiment, and it seriously sucks when this happens…but if the land is privately owned then it’s privately owned. Why you feel this fact justifies a hearty ‘fuck you’ to someone pointing this out is beyond me. Perhaps some environmental group should have made a counter offer to the owner to buy the land equal to the offer he got to clear cut it. Conversely, they could always make an offer on the land now and replant. The land is probably worth significantly less now, and it will take time…but trees can regrow even in places that have been devastated as you describe. > > -XT Because by doing so, he destroyed an system of habitats, and endangered others, that I know for a fact harbor endemic species that are found in no other place on earth. This is a truly unique and beautiful place, and it’s a fucking waste. Some of that erosional crap is washing right down into the formerly pristine cave system. Ecology \> Property rights. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/10 "2009-03-13T21:26:49Z")
Was this old-growth or crop forest? Some timber is nothing more than a crop - lodge pole pine being an example. Lodge pole grows fast and straight and lives to be 100 years at most. Somewhere in the 50s it is a good crop. Let it go to 100 and you get dead trees and a nice forest fire. I wonder if he bought the land to clear and sell it? That is how I got one of my properties - I bought cleared land from a logger. He bought the acres, cleared the easy stuff, and sold me the land at a huge discount. ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/11 "2009-03-13T21:28:10Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > Because by doing so, he destroyed an system of habitats, and endangered others, that I know for a fact harbor endemic species that are found in no other place on earth. This is a truly unique and beautiful place, and it’s a fucking waste. Some of that erosional crap is washing right down into the formerly pristine cave system. > > Ecology \> Property rights. Who owns the cave system? IANAL, but there might be a case there. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/12 "2009-03-13T21:29:25Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Was this old-growth or crop forest? Some timber is nothing more than a crop - lodge pole pine being an example. Lodge pole grows fast and straight and lives to be 100 years at most. Somewhere in the 50s it is a good crop. Let it go to 100 and you get dead trees and a nice forest fire. > > I wonder if he bought the land to clear and sell it? That is how I got one of my properties - I bought cleared land from a logger. He bought the acres, cleared the easy stuff, and sold me the land at a huge discount. This was 100% old-growth (or, y’know, hadn’t been logged in over 100 years.) No crop forest for miles in any direction. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/13 "2009-03-13T21:30:54Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] Because by doing so, he destroyed an system of habitats, and endangered others, that I know for a fact harbor endemic species that are found in no other place on earth. This is a truly unique and beautiful place, and it’s a fucking waste. Some of that erosional crap is washing right down into the formerly pristine cave system. [/QUOTE] Um…I agree with all of that. However, how does this impact private land ownership? Either you own the land and are free (within limits) to do with it as you will or you don’t. The guy was and probably is an asshole of the first order and I hope he chokes on the money he got for clear cutting it. I certainly agree with that aspect of your pitting and will heartily join you in calling him whatever vile names you like…but the core matter is that it was HIS land. Either we allow private ownership of land or we don’t, and as long as he complies with the applicable laws he is free to do whatever he likes with his land within those constraints. > [@](#): > > Ecology \> Property rights. I disagree. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/14 "2009-03-13T21:32:16Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Who owns the cave system? IANAL, but there might be a case there. He does, unfortunately. A landowner has the rights to underground property as well. A cave system being what it is, however (especially in that place, where it is directly connected to maybe as much as 50 miles of associated passages), it is extremely delicate. There are things living in there that no human has ever described, and may not live in any other place on the planet. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/15 "2009-03-13T21:34:23Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Um…I agree with all of that. However, how does this impact private land ownership? Either you own the land and are free (within limits) to do with it as you will or you don’t. > > The guy was and probably is an asshole of the first order and I hope he chokes on the money he got for clear cutting it. I certainly agree with that aspect of your pitting and will heartily join you in calling him whatever vile names you like…but the core matter is that it was HIS land. Either we allow private ownership of land or we don’t, and as long as he complies with the applicable laws he is free to do whatever he likes with his land within those constraints. > > I disagree. > > -XT With all due respect, you have a very anthropocentric worldview. I have one that is…less so. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/16 "2009-03-13T21:34:30Z")
So, he allows you (and others) to use his land and his cave? BTW, did anyone make a case for any of this before he clear cut it? I believe that you have to file some kind of paperwork for permits when you clear cut (though I could be wrong about this…I just seem to recall that you have to do this). -XT ---
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/17 "2009-03-13T21:35:42Z")
It’ll grow back. It’s not like it’s a forest of dodo birds. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/18 "2009-03-13T21:36:39Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So, he allows you (and others) to use his land and his cave? > > BTW, did anyone make a case for any of this before he clear cut it? I believe that you have to file some kind of paperwork for permits when you clear cut (though I could be wrong about this…I just seem to recall that you have to do this). > > -XT I don’t know. I had not been in the area for a couple of years, until yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/19 "2009-03-13T21:37:39Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > It’ll grow back. > > It’s not like it’s a forest of dodo birds. But it contains dodos, or the Southeastern equivalent thereof. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/20 "2009-03-13T21:38:09Z")
[QUOTE=Ogre] With all due respect, you have a very anthropocentric worldview. I have one that is…less so. [/QUOTE] Well…I like to think that my view is more reality based. We DO allow private land ownership…that’s reality. We DO put certain constraints on what you can and can’t do. Assuming he has broken no laws he is free, within those constraints, to do what he likes on HIS land. That’s reality. Whether what he did was a good thing or not is another matter. But until and unless it’s decided to seize all privately owned land (for the ‘good of the public’ of course) this is how it is. As for an anthropocentric worldview…well, yeah. I’m a human after all. Of COURSE I have such a view. So do you. After all, I seriously doubt the squirrels even have an opinion on the matter…nor do the polar bears. We BOTH have a human-centric view point on this…just seeing it from different human related perspectives. -XT [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365.md?page=2)