# Goddamnit, you idiots. Can't you leave ONE piece of pristine forest alone?! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 13, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365 "2009-03-13T21:05:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Xan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ac8455/32.png) [@Xan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xan)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/21 "2009-03-13T21:38:54Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > . > > Fuck you, and fuck all the raging Libertarian assholes who are going to inevitably reply, “It’s his land. Landowner rights are sacrosanct, blah blah blah horseshit.” I’m a libertarian and I think the guy is an asshole for doing what he did. Just because he could do it doesn’t mean he should have. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/22 "2009-03-13T21:41:56Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > I also believe that using drugs, suicide, prostituion, ritualistic satan worship, and \*\*drinking rancid milk \*\*should all be legal Go back to your home planet, newcomer! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/23 "2009-03-13T21:43:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Well…I like to think that my view is more reality based. We DO allow private land ownership…that’s reality. We DO put certain constraints on what you can and can’t do. Assuming he has broken no laws he is free, within those constraints, to do what he likes on HIS land. That’s reality. > > Whether what he did was a good thing or not is another matter. But until and unless it’s decided to seize all privately owned land (for the ‘good of the public’ of course) this is how it is. > > As for an anthropocentric worldview…well, yeah. I’m a human after all. Of COURSE I have such a view. So do you. After all, I seriously doubt the squirrels even have an opinion on the matter…nor do the polar bears. We BOTH have a human-centric view point on this…just seeing it from different human related perspectives. > > -XT Ah, a debate! Actually, as humans, we have the ability to take ourselves out of our own perspective, in a limited sense, by studying the effects of what we see around us. I am not arguing that I don’t have an anthropocentric worldview…merely that I’m a lot more educated about these matters than most people, and that I have a perspective on them that most people do not: one that is much less anthropocentric because I know that humans are, in fact, just one more animal species interacting with a planet full of other species. But yes, I’d love to see increased regulation of things like this. I’m not really ready to give up the entire idea of property rights, but maybe it’s a good idea for people to be able to drag an irresponsible property owner into court on “WTF” grounds. ---
**Author:** ![MichaelQReilly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@MichaelQReilly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MichaelQReilly)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/24 "2009-03-13T21:44:31Z")
The single worst thing happening in this country right now, IMHO, is the unconscionably high rate at which we are chewing up open space. Where I live, we are dangerously close to there being no farms anymore. The town I was born in doesn’t have any undeveloped parcels of land left, save one. Next time you drive around your town, look at the amount of things built before WWII and after. Its completely unsustainable. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/25 "2009-03-13T21:51:42Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > _shrug_ It’s his land. Do you not believe in private land ownership? Not everybody does, and I can see the point of those who don’t. If all the land on Earth is currently owned by somebody who’s entitled to use it—or use it up, or destroy it—however they want to, what does that leave for future generations? Some cultures (including, apparently, that of the [Old Testament Israelites](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus%2025:14-17,%2023-24;&version=31;)) have believed that people can’t own land; they can only rent it, or own the use of it for however many years. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/26 "2009-03-13T21:53:36Z")
It depends on where you live. There are places in the midwest that are turning into ghost towns. Development isn’t happening everywhere. Urban areas are filling in but lots of rural areas are emptying out. Although there’s certainly a net gain of development it isn’t all one sided. Now I’m gonna go listen to some Kate Wolf… A Lilac bush and an Apple tree Were standing in the woods, Out on the hill above the town, Where once a farmhouse stood… ---
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/27 "2009-03-13T21:54:01Z")
It’s pretty cool, though, that he lets you use his cave. Most land owners wouldn’t do that, liability and all that. He _does_ know you are using his cave, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/28 "2009-03-13T21:56:40Z")
> [@Sinaijon](#): > > It’s pretty cool, though, that he lets you use his cave. Most land owners wouldn’t do that, liability and all that. > > He _does_ know you are using his cave, right? Of course. What he doesn’t know, but will, the next time I see him, is what a shit he was for tearing down the forest. And there is no liability. I’ve been away from the game long enough to have forgotten the chapter and verse, but essentially, a property owner can’t be held liable for accidents that happen inside a cave. There’s an entire legal wing of the National Speleological Society also devoted to _pro bono_ work for property owners who are sued anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/29 "2009-03-13T21:58:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > A Lilac bush and an Apple tree > Were standing in the woods, > Out on the hill above the town, > Where once a farmhouse stood… …both of which, I’m sure, are exotic species… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/30 "2009-03-13T22:25:58Z")
Hey, any time you wanna come out to Vashon Island and pull up himalayan blackberries, holly, scotch broom, english ivy and morning glories, we’ve got a guest bedroom. ---
**Author:** ![Harmonious\_Discord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/74df32/32.png) [@Harmonious\_Discord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harmonious_Discord)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/31 "2009-03-13T22:33:00Z")
Everyplace that I ever have found a special retreat has ended up destroyed. This includes John Muir park that some environmental groups from as far away as California thought they should come to Wisconsin to fix it how they thought it should be. Enjoy it while you can, cherish it and be prepared to lose it one day to somebody else that doesn’t. You have my sympathy on the loss of your spot, and you sure don’t deserve the attitude of you can’t have a special spot unless you own it. I’m currently out of special spots, and have no retreats worth visiting. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/32 "2009-03-13T23:37:45Z")
I assume he allows you to go caving, and that you are not trespassing? So, he’s not a total asshole and that he allows you to share in the benefits of the land he bought. If you know for a fact that there are species of animals that live in this cave that exist no other place on earth, than you have been very selfish and stupid not to report these to the scientific community. Indeed, ecology is greater than property rights in an instance such as you describe. The species and the land that support it would be protected. It’s a shame you didn’t do that. It’s a shame you didn’t let the landowner know. Maybe he would have acted differently had he known. 100 years old does not particularly impress me as “old growth.” That’s just a bunch of twigs. It’ll grow back. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/33 "2009-03-13T23:42:40Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > I assume he allows you to go caving, and that you are not trespassing? So, he’s not a total asshole and that he allows you to share in the benefits of the land he bought. > > If you know for a fact that there are species of animals that live in this cave that exist no other place on earth, than you have been very selfish and stupid not to report these to the scientific community. Indeed, ecology is greater than property rights in an instance such as you describe. The species and the land that support it would be protected. > > It’s a shame you didn’t do that. It’s a shame you didn’t let the landowner know. Maybe he would have acted differently had he known. > > 100 years old does not particularly impress me as “old growth.” That’s just a bunch of twigs. It’ll grow back. At least 100. Also, the scientific community knows. Unfortunately, it’s hard to get endemic amphipods, spiders, copepods, etc. listed or protected. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/34 "2009-03-14T00:01:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Um…I agree with all of that. However, how does this impact private land ownership? Either you own the land and are free (within limits) to do with it as you will or you don’t. > > The guy was and probably is an asshole of the first order and I hope he chokes on the money he got for clear cutting it. I certainly agree with that aspect of your pitting and will heartily join you in calling him whatever vile names you like…but the core matter is that it was HIS land. Either we allow private ownership of land or we don’t, and as long as he complies with the applicable laws he is free to do whatever he likes with his land within those constraints. > > I disagree. > > -XT Now see that’s pretty fucked up. You have a habitat, nothing like it anywhere (per OP), and money from shitty cabinets at Home Depot. The shitty cabinet money is more important to you. ---
**Author:** ![elelle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@elelle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elelle)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/35 "2009-03-14T00:14:55Z")
Man, Ogre, I’m so sorry for that. It’s sad ignorance, propelled by money trumps all attitude. I see that great web of Nature, too, and was lucky to be raised with an appreciation for the intricacy of ecosystems. I feel your pain at seeing that sort of destruction. When I see it, it affects me as if seeing a neighboehood bombed, that sort of violence. Not just the trees have been cut, but all the myriad creatures are crushed, killed, or left fleeing. Not just the mammals that get more easy sympathy, but all the small ones that can’t move far, who have an important role in the bigger scope. I _am_ a soft heart here----when I see the clearcutters at work, I see a 50 year old boxturtle hopelessly running for his life, after being there for so long , generations of box turtles who’ve lived there, know their paths and habits, and it breaks my heart. “Trees will grow back”, well, yes, but after the damage of logging, the ground is compressed, and many understory plants that comprise the ecosystem do not rebound quickly. Trilliums take six years to grow from seed—I do that for a living, and when their habitat is disturbed, it takes a long time to reinstate that colony, if ever. And all those tiny pieces of flora and fauna are interelated, in ways we are just beginning to understand. A great book , and author who is now making the rounds talking is [“Bringing Nature Home” by Dr. Doug Tallamy](http://www.timberpress.com/books/isbn.cfm/9780881928549). He’s an entomologist who has done great work showing how the web of life starts from an oak tree supporting over 400 different species of caterpillars, and from there, all the birds and the whole food chain of wildlife. I think the best revenge you can do, Ogre, is to take your students there, and let them understand that damage, so they can become good ecologists who can educate others, hopefully on a larger scale than purely academic. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/36 "2009-03-14T00:19:54Z")
Yeah, put me down for one helping of this: > [@Ogre](#): > > “It’s his land. Landowner rights are sacrosanct, blah blah blah horseshit.” and one helping of “if you are so interested in how tha land looks, why didn’t you buy it yourself?” ---
**Author:** ![Jorge\_Burrito](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Jorge\_Burrito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jorge_Burrito)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/37 "2009-03-14T00:24:32Z")
Sounds like to me you are lucky he didn’t shoot you with a shotgun for being on his land. ---
**Author:** ![Yllaria](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yllaria/32/3452_2.png) [@Yllaria](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yllaria)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/38 "2009-03-14T00:45:38Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I’m as upset as you are when land I love gets harvested or built on. That’s why I contribute to several non-profits that buy up land or development rights. It’s really a very simple value proposition. Got a link? I’d be willing to contribute. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/39 "2009-03-14T01:00:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > Yeah, put me down for one helping of this: > > and one helping of “if you are so interested in how tha land looks, why didn’t you buy it yourself?” Speak to me again when you’re finished with your freshman year, kiddo. > [@](#): > > Sounds like to me you are lucky he didn’t shoot you with a shotgun for being on his land. Way to read the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2009, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365/40 "2009-03-14T01:03:10Z")
> [@elelle](#): > > Man, Ogre, I’m so sorry for that. It’s sad ignorance, propelled by money trumps all attitude. I see that great web of Nature, too, and was lucky to be raised with an appreciation for the intricacy of ecosystems. I feel your pain at seeing that sort of destruction. When I see it, it affects me as if seeing a neighboehood bombed, that sort of violence. > > Not just the trees have been cut, but all the myriad creatures are crushed, killed, or left fleeing. Not just the mammals that get more easy sympathy, but all the small ones that can’t move far, who have an important role in the bigger scope. I _am_ a soft heart here----when I see the clearcutters at work, I see a 50 year old boxturtle hopelessly running for his life, after being there for so long , generations of box turtles who’ve lived there, know their paths and habits, and it breaks my heart. > > “Trees will grow back”, well, yes, but after the damage of logging, the ground is compressed, and many understory plants that comprise the ecosystem do not rebound quickly. Trilliums take six years to grow from seed—I do that for a living, and when their habitat is disturbed, it takes a long time to reinstate that colony, if ever. And all those tiny pieces of flora and fauna are interelated, in ways we are just beginning to understand. A great book , and author who is now making the rounds talking is [“Bringing Nature Home” by Dr. Doug Tallamy](http://www.timberpress.com/books/isbn.cfm/9780881928549). He’s an entomologist who has done great work showing how the web of life starts from an oak tree supporting over 400 different species of caterpillars, and from there, all the birds and the whole food chain of wildlife. > > I think the best revenge you can do, Ogre, is to take your students there, and let them understand that damage, so they can become good ecologists who can educate others, hopefully on a larger scale than purely academic. I appreciate the words, **elelle**. You know you’re OK with me. And that’s exactly what I’m going to try to do. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goddamnit-you-idiots-cant-you-leave-one-piece-of-pristine-forest-alone/489365.md?page=3)