# Godfather Question number 3,000: "Santino, what's the matter with you?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 21, 2016, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776 "2016-03-21T16:24:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2016, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/21 "2016-03-22T22:53:05Z")
> [@Ambrosio\_Spinola](#): > > He felt that Vito was basing his refusal on his dislike of drugs and the Tattaglia Family’s involvement as opposed to business concerns, so Tom tried to convince him that it was in their interest to take the deal. I don’t think he necessarily disagreed with Vito’s position that being involved in drugs might also harm the family in the long run, but he thought that losing out on the revenue would be the greater danger. Not entirely. Vito tells Solotzo that his ‘friends’ in the judicial system, police, judges etc., might not remain so if he gets into the drug business. Gambling, prostitution etc. they consider a harmless vice but drugs are,[“…a little dangerous”.](https://youtu.be/Yut9qPyT9jE?t=134) ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/22 "2016-03-23T18:12:39Z")
Just to be clear, the mafia not being involved in the drug trade, particularly heroin is a myth (perpetuated by stories like the Godfather). They were involved from their inception. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/23 "2016-03-24T02:30:04Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Just to be clear, the mafia not being involved in the drug trade, particularly heroin is a myth (perpetuated by stories like the Godfather). They were involved from their inception. The Godfather perpetuated a number of myths about the Mafia. Mario Puzo, the author freely admitted that prior to writing the book he’d never interviewed a single Mafia member. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/24 "2016-03-24T04:11:27Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > Just to be clear, the mafia not being involved in the drug trade, particularly heroin is a myth (perpetuated by stories like the Godfather). They were involved from their inception. Absolutely true, but it is also true that were at least a few mobsters that _tried_ to keep their own people out of the narcotics trade like [Angelo Bruno](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angelo_Bruno) of Philadelphia ( though Bruno hypocritically and happily took a cut from _other_ families operating on his turf ). Didn’t typically end well for them, as again with Bruno. ---
**Author:** ![Lochdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/edb3f5/32.png) [@Lochdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lochdale)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2016, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/25 "2016-03-24T04:57:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > The Godfather perpetuated a number of myths about the Mafia. Mario Puzo, the author freely admitted that prior to writing the book he’d never interviewed a single Mafia member. The Godfather movies are terrific as movies, as Greek tragedies but unfortunately they glamorize the worst in human behavior. The mob was/is a malevelont, violent, nasty organization and nothing more. As to the thread though, I think Sonny’s outburst wasn’t so much about him being interested in the deal as to make it clear to the Turk, and his backers, that Sonny was A hot head such that if the Dad was taken out then his much weaker son would take over. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/26 "2016-03-25T05:47:23Z")
> [@Lochdale](#): > > The Godfather movies are terrific as movies, as Greek tragedies but unfortunately they glamorize the worst in human behavior. How do the Godfather movies glamorize the worst in human behavior? ---
**Author:** ![doorhinge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a5b964/32.png) [@doorhinge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doorhinge)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/27 "2016-03-25T18:39:47Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > How do the Godfather movies glamorize the worst in human behavior? Do you believe that the Corleones, Luca Brasi, the crooked cops, and judges were good guys? In the real world, the crime families are criminals. Murderers, drug smugglers, thieves, blackmailers, muggers, robbers, extortionists, wife beaters, etc. The Godfather movies made these criminals look like sympathetic characters to many of the movie viewers. _Dere not bad guys. Dere just guys tryin’ to put food on da table for dere families. Youse got a problem wid dat?_ ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2016, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/28 "2016-03-25T18:54:48Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Do you believe that the Corleones, Luca Brasi, the crooked cops, and judges were good guys? > > In the real world, the crime families are criminals. Murderers, drug smugglers, thieves, blackmailers, muggers, robbers, extortionists, wife beaters, etc. > > The Godfather movies made these criminals look like sympathetic characters to many of the movie viewers. _Dere not bad guys. Dere just guys tryin’ to put food on da table for dere families. Youse got a problem wid dat?_ The question was asked how it glamorizes them not if people perceived them as good guys. Vito dies after burying his son and watching his dream for Michael die. Fredo takes one to the back of the head. Sonny gets ventilated. Michael is on top but sees everything that matters to him get taken away until he dies alone. Tessio is whacked. Clemenza dies in a contract dispute. Frankie 5 Angels bleeds out in a tub. Not a lot of glamor. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/29 "2016-03-26T01:35:52Z")
> [@doorhinge](#): > > Do you believe that the Corleones, Luca Brasi, the crooked cops, and judges were good guys? > > In the real world, the crime families are criminals. Murderers, drug smugglers, thieves, blackmailers, muggers, robbers, extortionists, wife beaters, etc. > > The Godfather movies made these criminals look like sympathetic characters to many of the movie viewers. _Dere not bad guys. Dere just guys tryin’ to put food on da table for dere families. Youse got a problem wid dat?_ Can you give some specific examples where the characters look sympathetic? And specific examples of how it glamorizes the worst in human behavior? ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/30 "2016-03-26T03:17:46Z")
Let’s not confuse “sympathetic” with “glamorous”. We sympathize with the Corleones – they’re the protagonists, we feel for them. When Sonny is gunned down we’re horrified and saddened, because he was a likable character. When Michael shoots Solozzo and McCluskey, the audience is shouting “don’t forget to drop the gun!!!” … to a guy who just shot a cop. But they’re by no means glamorous, and they all come to bad ends. Except Vito, who dies peacefully in his garden, playing with his grandson. ---
**Author:** ![Hermione](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cdc98d/32.png) [@Hermione](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hermione)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/31 "2016-03-26T03:51:10Z")
That’s the same thing I’ve always wondered when people claim the Godfather movies “romanticize” the Mafia. Look at how Michael ends up at the end of II, let alone III–can anyone claim that his life was in any way glamorized? He ends up losing pretty much everyone he ever held dear, because of his life of crime. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/32 "2016-03-26T15:56:24Z")
The _Godfather_ movies are set in a generally immoral world. Michael: My father is no different than any powerful man, any man with power, like a president or senator. Kay: Do you know how naive you sound, Michael? Presidents and senators don’t have men killed. Michael: Oh. Who’s being naive, Kay? _The Godfather_ was considered groundbreaking on the antihero front. But Michael was still an antihero, not a hero. And it hardly glorified the Mafia. The numerous murders and gang wars made it quite clear that this wasn’t an occupation that any normal person would aspire to. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/33 "2016-03-26T17:21:41Z")
I think it’s significant that we first meet these characters in the best possible light: at a wedding, dancing and singing; and when the Don is conducting business, it consists of doing favors for nice people. The only people who get killed are people who deserve it; or at least, the enemies of these nice people. One exception is Apollonia, Michael’s wife – which just makes us sympathize with Michael even more. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/34 "2016-03-26T20:05:22Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think it’s significant that we first meet these characters in the best possible light: at a wedding, dancing and singing; and when the Don is conducting business, it consists of doing favors for nice people. But even at the wedding, we’re not seeing them in the best possible light. It’s immediately clear that the wedding is a thin veneer on the familys real way of life. That’s the part that’s significant, juxtaposing a joyous wedding scene where terrible things are brewing underneath. Michael tells Kay how his father once threatened to kill a bandleader, Sonny fucks a bridesmaid, and the favors the Don will do is to have other people savagely beaten for “nice” people. > [@jsc1953](#): > > The only people who get killed are people who deserve it; or at least, the enemies of these nice people. One exception is Apollonia, Michael’s wife – which just makes us sympathize with Michael even more. I’m curious what has Michael done to warrant your sympathy? Especially considering by that point (and even as far back to where you were concerned he wouldn’t drop the gun) he had already fully committed to the family business. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/35 "2016-03-26T20:17:55Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I think it’s significant that we first meet these characters in the best possible light: at a wedding, dancing and singing; and when the Don is conducting business, it consists of doing favors for nice people. > > The only people who get killed are people who deserve it; or at least, the enemies of these nice people. One exception is Apollonia, Michael’s wife – which just makes us sympathize with Michael even more. The wedding scene is generally renowned among film buffs for it’s ability to introduce an incredible number of characters complete with a bit of background on the personality of each. Speaking of the opening scene, nice people and people who are killed. I assume you believe that Luca Brasi, the only person explicitly portrayed as a killer in the opening, deserved to die. (In the book, oh yeah, lots of reason to wish him dead.) But his death seeemed “unfair” to me in some sense. An family enforcer like him should have gone down in a hit gone bad. Not during a friendly chat session with no warning. Checking the first film’s body count, only Khartoum the horse is left to mention as not having earned his fate. In the second film, we have Vito’s father and brother being killed. It is painted as unfair but we aren’t really sure within the film. (The book’s are a little clearer on the [Corleone-Ciccio conflict](http://godfather.wikia.com/wiki/Corleone-Ciccio_conflict).) His mother’s death is more clear cut. She’s trying to kill Don Ciccio so she is killed in self defense. OTOH, she was pleading for the life of Vito. There is also the prostitute that Sen. Geary thinks he killed. (But was apparently killed by Neri.) ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/36 "2016-03-26T22:35:22Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > But even at the wedding, we’re not seeing them in the best possible light. It’s immediately clear that the wedding is a thin veneer on the familys real way of life. That’s the part that’s significant, juxtaposing a joyous wedding scene where terrible things are brewing underneath. Michael tells Kay how his father once threatened to kill a bandleader, Sonny fucks a bridesmaid, and the favors the Don will do is to have other people savagely beaten for “nice” people. But the bandleader was being a prick – Vito only had to threaten after he refused a reasonable business offer. And the people being beaten savagely deserved it – they got off scot-free after beating up an innocent girl. I’m being semi-facetious, but in all seriousness, we’re not being asked to root for 100% ruthless evil people. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/37 "2016-03-26T22:46:39Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I’m being semi-facetious, but in all seriousness, we’re not being asked to root for 100% ruthless evil people. But you do feel sympathy for them. What I’m asking is what the family has done to warrant your sympathy. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/38 "2016-03-26T23:49:41Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > I’m being semi-facetious, but in all seriousness, we’re not being asked to root for 100% ruthless evil people. Murdering a prostitute to frame a senator? Heck, murdering a prostitute who happens to be in wrong place at the wrong time when Philip Tattaglia is hit? We don’t see the worst of the Corleone ugliness, because the day-to-day operations is mostly not dwelt on much. But it’s a certainty that it is there. ---
**Author:** ![jsc1953](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/5daacb/32.png) [@jsc1953](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsc1953)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2016, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/39 "2016-03-27T02:05:54Z")
> [@zbuzz](#): > > But you do feel sympathy for them. What I’m asking is what the family has done to warrant your sympathy. Here’s our (or at least, my) first impression: Vito: we see him meting out justice, in a way that any of us would envy. He cuts through red tape to get a green card for Enzio the baker. He orders a beating (but not a killing – that would be excessive) for punks. He gets a movie part for his godson, who was unfairly denied the part. Sonny: Hot-tempered but charismatic. He’s confronting the police, making sure they don’t spoil his sister’s wedding; he destroys a camera – but pays for it. So the Corleones aren’t just thugs; they have a sense of dignity and proportion. Michael: returning war hero, who wants no part of the family business, and is only drawn into it in response to an unwarranted assassination attempt on his father. So yeah, they seem pretty sympathetic. ---
**Author:** ![zbuzz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e19b73/32.png) [@zbuzz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zbuzz)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2016, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776/40 "2016-03-27T02:59:18Z")
> [@jsc1953](#): > > Here’s our (or at least, my) first impression: > > Vito: we see him meting out justice, in a way that any of us would envy. He cuts through red tape to get a green card for Enzio the baker. He orders a beating (but not a killing – that would be excessive) for punks. He gets a movie part for his godson, who was unfairly denied the part. > > Sonny: Hot-tempered but charismatic. He’s confronting the police, making sure they don’t spoil his sister’s wedding; he destroys a camera – but pays for it. > > So the Corleones aren’t just thugs; they have a sense of dignity and proportion. > > Michael: returning war hero, who wants no part of the family business, and is only drawn into it in response to an unwarranted assassination attempt on his father. > > So yeah, they seem pretty sympathetic. So you feel sympathy because they beat people, destroy property and turn from war hero to murderer. And that to you equals a sense of dignity. OK. I think that’s an utterly bizarre position but asked and answered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godfather-question-number-3-000-santino-whats-the-matter-with-you/749776.md?page=3)