# God's involvement in the Middle East. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 12, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314 "2002-04-12T20:43:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Karallen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ea666f/32.png) [@Karallen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Karallen)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2002, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/1 "2002-04-12T20:43:39Z")
According to the ancient bibical family tree, Judaism and Christianity are both descendants of the sons of Isaac, then Jacob and so on. Islam, on the other hand, traces its roots to Abraham and Hagor’s son, Ishmael, who led to the 12 princes, and on to Mohammed. In the Jewish Bible (Old testament), God tells Abraham that he will make a great nation of him. He also tells this to Ishmael ,saying he will give him 12 princes. Now, God (for a biblical standpoint) is a being of infinite wisdom and knowledge. If he made a nation of Abraham (Jews, Christians), and then of Ishmael (Moslims), wouldn’t he know that this would create a conflict in Israel today? ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/2 "2002-04-13T03:19:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Karallen \* > \*\* > Now, God (for a biblical standpoint) is a being of infinite wisdom and knowledge. If he made a nation of Abraham (Jews, Christians), and then of Ishmael (Moslims), wouldn’t he know that this would create a conflict in Israel today? \*\* Since God is a _being of infinte wisdom and knowledge_ - he obviously knew what he was doing and still does. Are you questioning that or are you asking how he could create people who would eventually become enemies? The prophecies that concern Israel are being set to become fulfilled. I cannot say I’m happy to see war and death and evil happening in our world, but from a biblical standpoint it is exciting to see prophecy happening before our very eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/3 "2002-04-13T04:01:43Z")
Well, I think your assumption that Jews and Muslims are somehow inherantly enemies is wrong. Historically, for example, Jews and Muslims have had a much better relationship than Jews and Christians. It’s only been in the past 100 years that there’s been serious tension, because of the situation in Israel, and that’s more a nationalism problem than a religious one. The Palestinians, for example, religiously, are both Muslim and Christian, and Muslim and Christian Palestinians tend to have similar attitudes. Some Palestinian groups are secular or even anti-religious. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/4 "2002-04-13T20:01:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I cannot say I’m happy to see war and death and evil happening in our world, but from a biblical standpoint it is exciting to see prophecy happening before our very eyes. _What_ prophecy? Did John the Revelator discuss the widow watching yet another son killed in a rain of bullets? Did Isaiah talk about children’s limbs strewn like kindling across a cafe patio? Did Elijah mention blood pouring from the holes blasted into a baby’s face by mortar shrapnel? Or maybe Joseph and Joshua expounded on the farmer who’s just lost both legs to a mine, screaming to god to please, please just let him die? I cannot find it “exciting.” I’m too busy being disgusted, appalled, and deeply saddened. If that’s what God requires for His “prophecies,” I wish nothing to do with them or Him. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/5 "2002-04-13T20:33:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\* I cannot say I’m happy to see war and death and evil happening in our world, but from a biblical standpoint it is exciting to see prophecy happening before our very eyes. \*\* Actually, what’s before your eyes is your television set. If you think it’s so “exciting”, why not travel to Israel and get yourself right in the thick of it? Of course, if you lose your wallet or get your legs blown off, I’m sure God will reimburse you. (incidentally, I’m rooting for Israel, but I’d prefer they pull back at this stage - the point’s been made) ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/6 "2002-04-13T20:37:28Z")
I’m mostly looking forward to the seas turning to blood. That’ll excite me so much that I’ll book myself on a cruise right then and there. And after the relaxing blood cruise, I can join the Tribulation Force! Yay! ---
**Author:** ![king\_of\_spain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/7cd45c/32.png) [@king\_of\_spain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/king_of_spain)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/7 "2002-04-13T20:41:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Karallen \* > \*\* > Now, God (for a biblical standpoint) is a being of infinite wisdom and knowledge. If he made a nation of Abraham (Jews, Christians), and then of Ishmael (Moslims), wouldn’t he know that this would create a conflict in Israel today? \*\* [pedant mode]Um, I’m pretty sure that Muslims consider themselves children of Abraham too. Jews, and by extension Christians, are descended from Isaac, and Muslims are descended from Ishmael, but we all go back to Abraham.[/pedant mode] ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/8 "2002-04-13T22:42:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\* > > _What_ prophecy? > > Did John the Revelator discuss the widow watching yet another son killed in a rain of bullets? > > Did Isaiah talk about children’s limbs strewn like kindling across a cafe patio? > > Did Elijah mention blood pouring from the holes blasted into a baby’s face by mortar shrapnel? > > Or maybe Joseph and Joshua expounded on the farmer who’s just lost both legs to a mine, screaming to god to please, please just let him die? > I cannot find it “exciting.” I’m too busy being disgusted, appalled, and deeply saddened. If that’s what God requires for His “prophecies,” I wish nothing to do with them or Him. \*\* In case you haven’t noticed MEN are fighting and killing and doing all those things you mentioned, not God. And my excitement is not for death and destruction, it’s for the return of Christ to this earth for the sake of peace. If you want to know the bible prophecy concerning Israel read here [www.jackvanimpe.com](http://www.jackvanimpe.com) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/9 "2002-04-13T23:02:01Z")
I’m terribly sorry, but would you mind pointing to a list of the prophecies Mr. van Impe believes are being fulfilled by the violence in the Middle East? I find the site somewhat short on specifics, though I confess that’s probably just my inability to navigate the site. Anyhoo, here’s my question: _If_ the violence that is occurring is a _necessary_ prerequisite for Christ’s return, why? I mean, don’t you think it’s a little ghoulish to say “yay, people are dying horribly! Christ is coming back soon!”? Further, what makes this particular war/conflict The One? What reasons does Mr. van Impe give to make people think that this time is really the real end of the world, no really, we mean it this time? ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/10 "2002-04-13T23:19:27Z")
I would just like to point out that the idea that Israel’s problems, the violence in the Middle East and all that jazz is a prerequisite to the “last days,” is not a mainstream Christian belief, and is found almost exclusively among those subscribing to the Rapturite Dispensationalism of John Darby. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![Kirkland1244](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kirkland1244](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kirkland1244)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2002, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/11 "2002-04-13T23:20:01Z")
I would just like to point out that the idea that Israel’s problems, the violence in the Middle East and all that jazz is a prerequisite to the “last days,” is not a mainstream Christian belief, and is found almost exclusively among those subscribing to the Rapturite Dispensationalism of John Darby. In other words, don’t think the vast majority of Chrisitans have anything in common with what you read from Jack Van Impe and his pals. Kirk ---
**Author:** ![dreamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/6bbea6/32.png) [@dreamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dreamer)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/12 "2002-04-14T05:52:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\*I’m terribly sorry, but would you mind pointing to a list of the prophecies Mr. van Impe believes are being fulfilled by the violence in the Middle East? I find the site somewhat short on specifics, though I confess that’s probably just my inability to navigate the site. > Anyhoo, here’s my question: _If_ the violence that is occurring is a _necessary_ prerequisite for Christ’s return, why? I mean, don’t you think it’s a little ghoulish to say “yay, people are dying horribly! Christ is coming back soon!”? > > Further, what makes this particular war/conflict The One? What reasons does Mr. van Impe give to make people think that this time is really the real end of the world, no really, we mean it this time? \*\* I won’t pretend to know _why_ the violence is part of prophecy, I just know that throughout the book of Matthew (specifcially Chapter 24) Jesus talks of the end times and what to look for. Yes, people have been saying for years “now is the time”, but there is one scripture and I’m not exactly sure where it is at the moment, but it says that once Israel became a nation (1948) that not one generation will pass before seeing the return of the Messiah. And also in Matthew 24 starting in verse 36 Jesus says “No one knows the day or the hour,(of Christ’s return) not even the angels in Heaven, nor the Son. But only the Father.” So people predict and predict, but really no one knows the exact time, just that the signs show the time is near. This site seems a little more informative than the jack van impe one if you wanna check it out [http://www.khouse.org](http://www.khouse.org) ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/13 "2002-04-14T07:09:09Z")
andros, You must not be reading the bible, since it is very specific in its predictions of what signs to look for. There will be wars, and there will be famine, pestilence, and earthquakes in diverse places. Based on these tell-tale signs, Jesus is been on his way for a **very** long time. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/14 "2002-04-14T18:20:50Z")
Oh, I know this well, **DMC**. I get a big kick out of the predictions. Every time, people are perfectly damn sure that _now_ is the time, by gum. And every time they’re wrong. I just find it amazing that some people can twist their Book’s prophecies to the extent of actually being happy about death and suffering. It’s sick, and it’s wrong, and as near as I can tell Christ would have been appalled. **Dreamer** : > [@](#): > > there is one scripture and I’m not exactly sure where it is at the moment, but it says that once Israel became a nation (1948) that not one generation will pass before seeing the return of the Messiah. You go ahead and find that scripture. I do not think it says what your leaders want you to believe it says. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/15 "2002-04-14T19:41:40Z")
“There will be wars and rumours of wars, but the end is not yet.” – Jesus of Nazareth ---
**Author:** ![hansel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/6bbea6/32.png) [@hansel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hansel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/16 "2002-04-14T19:51:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dreamer \* > \*\*…once Israel became a nation (1948) that not one generation will pass before seeing the return of the Messiah. \*\* Haven’t several generations already passed in 54 years since Israel became a state? People born there since 1948 are already having grandchildren. ---
**Author:** ![Drastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Drastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drastic)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/17 "2002-04-14T19:56:22Z")
Not one as in, not one but two…or maybe three…or n, basically. That way, it can always be right. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2002, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/18 "2002-04-14T20:25:49Z")
It’s my undertabnding that most people are interpreting a generation’s passing to mean the death of the very last person who was alive when the big event occurred. That gives them several more decades. But that’s the thing . . . people interpret such things differently, but they’re _all_ completely convinced they’re right. ---
**Author:** ![ummm.yeahh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ummm.yeahh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ummm.yeahh)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/19 "2002-04-15T03:02:32Z")
OK- Let me try to add some specific biblical references. I am not trying to convince anyone but I’ll let these speak for themselves. First, as an example of Old Testament prophecy being fulfilled, I would reference Psalm 22. Check out how **specific** this prophecy is regarding the messiah’s death on the cross. Jesus could not have controlled all these prophecies (gambling for his clothes etc). I would use this as a reference to establish the validity of Old Testament prophecy. Second, for the prophecy of Israel’s rebirth in 1948, check out Ezekiel 37. This “valley of the dry bones” prophecy is so specific in it’s prediction. Israel began to reform and migrate after the war (bone to bone, flesh to flesh) but it says there was no breath in it. This is because Israel was much like Palastine, they were not recognized as a state. This did not happen until 1948 where 37:10 came to pass. Ezekiel 38 talks about a prophecy that is yet to come to pass. Gog and Magog is modern day Russia. Together with many of the Islamic states Israel will be attacked but protected by the Lord. I know this sounds crazy and I would agree except I see so many of the previous prophecies fulfilled. Additional prophecy- Ezekiel 38:25-26 Israel regethered Matthew 24:2 Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple which happened years after his death and resurrection. Jesus says “not one stone shall be left upon another”. This happened when the Romans burned the temple and the gold melted into the bricks. The soldiers literally dismantled the temple stone by stone to get to the gold. The accuracy of this prophecy validiates the rest of the chapter which talks about the end times. This passage in Matthew is referred to as the “skeleton” by which all other prophecy can be hung. Hope this helps. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2002, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314/20 "2002-04-15T17:40:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ummm… yeahh… \* > **I would use this as a reference to establish the validity of Old Testament prophecy.** So you’re saying that an earlier part of a book reinforces a later part of the same book? I’m not terribly convinced. Regarding **Ezekiel 37** : do you entertain the slightest possibility that the 19th century Zionist movement was driving towards this prophecy, rather than being driven? Furthermore, if they were of a religious bent, would they not have worried about the fulfillment of this prophecy catalysing the arrival of Judgement Day? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-involvement-in-the-middle-east/103314.md?page=2)