God's involvement in the Middle East.

[dal_timgar]

what if european christians aren’t really christians.

when Constantine became emporor and introduced “christianity” to the roman empire, there were different christian groups. the constantinian christians corrupted the ideas of christ with roman paganism to assimilate the pagans. look at the statues in a “roman” catholic church.

chernobyl means wormwood. find wormwood in revelations. would the soviet union have collapsed when it did had it not been for chernobyl?
what is the “whore of babylon” in revelations? not the pseudochristians by any chance?

Dal Timgar

[ummm.yeahh]

**

So you’re saying that an earlier part of a book reinforces a later part of the same book? I’m not terribly convinced.

**

Nope. What I am saying is Psalm 22 validates history. The crucifiction of Jesus Christ is a well documented event. His resurrection has been debated but his death is a fact. So my opinion is that Psalm 22 fulfills a prophecy of Jesus death.

**

Regarding Ezekiel 37: do you entertain the slightest possibility that the 19th century Zionist movement was driving towards this prophecy, rather than being driven? Furthermore, if they were of a religious bent, would they not have worried about the fulfillment of this prophecy catalysing the arrival of Judgement Day?

**

Alright, let me entertain that notion. But I have trouble accepting that based on how far fetched it seems. Are you implying that jewish people planned the events that led to their reinstatement as a nation? These events were beyond their control. This scenario seems less likely to me than fulfillment of prophecy. And I think that the events of WWII and the atrocities of the holocost were much more fresh in their minds than the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. It’s fuzzy math.

[Cervaise]

So did that guy succeed in breeding that red cow yet, or what?

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by ummm… yeahh… *
**First, as an example of Old Testament prophecy being fulfilled, I would reference Psalm 22. Check out how specific this prophecy is regarding the messiah’s death on the cross. Jesus could not have controlled all these prophecies (gambling for his clothes etc). I would use this as a reference to establish the validity of Old Testament prophecy.

Well, or the writers of the gospels knew the prophecies and wrote the crucifixion story to fit them.

Matthew 24:2 Jesus predicts the destruction of the temple which happened years after his death and resurrection. Jesus says “not one stone shall be left upon another”. This happened when the Romans burned the temple and the gold melted into the bricks. The soldiers literally dismantled the temple stone by stone to get to the gold. The accuracy of this prophecy validiates the rest of the chapter which talks about the end times. This passage in Matthew is referred to as the “skeleton” by which all other prophecy can be hung.

Hope this helps. Thanks. **

Except part of the temple still exists pretty much intact…the Wailing Wall

[jjimm]

*Originally posted by ummm… yeahh… *
The crucifiction of Jesus Christ is a well documented event.

I haven’t yet seen an irrefutable translation that mentions his crucifixion. I’d be interested to see one.

Are you implying that jewish people planned the events that led to their reinstatement as a nation?

Well, yes.

**These events were beyond their control. **

Well, no.

Following Europe-wide anti-semitism and pogroms during the mid-19th century, the Zionist Congress was set up with the aim of seeking “to establish a home for the Jewish people in Eretz-Israel secured under public law” (thus fulfilling the scriptures). Their aims were picked up by the British in the Balfour Declaration of 1917.

This scenario seems less likely to me than fulfillment of prophecy.

Do you really? Suggest you take Occam’s Razor give this a bit of a shave.

**And I think that the events of WWII and the atrocities of the holocost were much more fresh in their minds than the fulfillment of Ezekiel 37. It’s fuzzy math. **

No it isn’t - the Balfour Declaration was made several decades before the Shoah. It certainly catalysed the UN into creating a Jewish state, but the intention was already there.

[ummm.yeahh]

**

Well, or the writers of the gospels knew the prophecies and wrote the crucifixion story to fit them.

**

Kinda hard to swallow since the old testament was completed before the time of Jesus birth. I also believe that the earliest known form of these scriptures is known as the “LXX”. It is dated as 285 BC. That’s 285 years before the brith of Christ. It was compiled by Ptolemy of Philadelphus.
**

Except part of the temple still exists pretty much intact…the Wailing Wall

**

The Wailing Wall or Western Wall is a retaining wall from the 2nd temple. Not a part of the temple itself.

**

I haven’t yet seen an irrefutable translation that mentions his crucifixion. I’d be interested to see one.

**

I’m not quite sure what you’re looking for then. Do you need a videotape to see it for yourself? The crucification is recorded in many documents thoughout history. I mean, what is meant by “irrefutable” evidence? Do we doubt other events in history as well documented? How do we know Socrates writings were accurate? Because it is well doucmented as is the crucifiction.

[ummm.yeahh]

Here’s a link that may help illustrate my point. Thanks for the great debate.

[Puzzle_Boy]

*Originally posted by Cervaise *
**So did that guy succeed in breeding that red cow yet, or what? **

Here is a link to a news report about that on April 8th.

[jjimm]

*Originally posted by ummm… yeahh… *
**Here’s a link that may help illustrate my point. Thanks for the great debate. **

But we haven’t even got started!

You haven’t yet commented on the evidence that the creation of the state of Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel might actually have been conscious.

Kinda hard to swallow since the old testament was completed before the time of Jesus birth

If the OT had been finished before Jesus’ birth, then it would have been easier for someone to fake a gospel showing its main protagonist fulfilling a prophecy. Your argument is illogical.

You have concluded by posting a cite from an uncritical source. Furthermore, your cite again uses the bible to justify itself. It mentions historical evidence only in passing.

How about this one, which is somewhat more academic, or [url=]this one, from a Christian source, which concludes the validity of the evidence, but does it through thoughtful analysis.

I’m not saying it didn’t happen, but I’m questioning the blind assertion that there is extrabiblical historical evidence of the crucifixion, and blind assertion of the interpretation of an evidently analogous prophecy.

[Captain_Amazing]

*Originally posted by ummm… yeahh… *

---

Kinda hard to swallow since the old testament was completed before the time of Jesus birth. I also believe that the earliest known form of these scriptures is known as the “LXX”. It is dated as 285 BC. That’s 285 years before the brith of Christ. It was compiled by Ptolemy of Philadelphus.
**

No, you’re misunderstanding me. What I meant was the writer of the gospel knew about Psalm 22, and that it was considered a messianistic prophecy, so when he was writing the gospel, he included scenes that would “fit” the psalm.

[jjimm]

Here’s the missing URL from my last post: http://www.tektonics.org/tekton_01_01_01_TC.html

And I should have capitalized ‘Bible’.

[ummm.yeahh]

Wow. You guys are really challenging me. This is a good thing. We may disagree on certain points but it is important to know why we believe what we do.

Let me begin by saying that there is a certain amount of this that I admittingly have to rely on faith. That is the nature of my relationship with Christ. Let’s face it, if either side could be proved (with the documentation available) right or wrong by now, it would have been. But that is not to say we should blindly follow either.

**

No, you’re misunderstanding me. What I meant was the writer of the gospel knew about Psalm 22, and that it was considered a messianistic prophecy, so when he was writing the gospel, he included scenes that would “fit” the psalm.

**

**

If the OT had been finished before Jesus’ birth, then it would have been easier for someone to fake a gospel showing its main protagonist fulfilling a prophecy. Your argument is illogical.

**

This is a good point. My rebuttal would be:

1. The writers of the gospels suffered immense torture and death for what they wrote. I don’t see how they would be willing to suffer the immense pain and torture for what they new was a lie. This is a whole other debate though!

2. If this is all a mass conspiracy, wouldn’t it have been better to make the prophecies of the Messiah much less specific? Why would David (and many others) be so specific about the Messiah? Wouldn’t it be better to just refer to “a death” rather than specific events of his death?

3. Jesus fufills prophecy all throughout the old testament. Of course, the old testament was written by many authors. I find that each old testament prophecy seems to agree with others from different books. So if this is a conspiracy, it would have to span thousands of years and many different authors, including the 4 authors of the gospels. This conspiracy would have to start with Moses, who made the first biblical reference to the Messiah in Genesis 3:15-

*.**. 3:15I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel." ** *

4. Who would want Jesus to be the Messiah? Judaism has rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Why would early Christians, who were Jews, try to formulate this conspiracy unless a) they believed He was the Messiah and were willing to “fib” on the details or b) It is as they say.

5. The writers of the gospels would have had to conspire together to write the gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John got together and said “OK, here’s the story”?? Again, too much info to be able to lie and stay consistent. The gospels tell variations of the same stories but they do not contradict the other versions.

As you can see this is a long post. I see two other questions I have yet to answer to:

**

You haven’t yet commented on the evidence that the creation of the state of Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel might actually have been conscious.

**

and

**

Furthermore, your cite again uses the bible to justify itself. It mentions historical evidence only in passing.

**

I want to address these very good points but can’t spend any longer on this post. I am at work right now! Give me 24 hours to consult my resources at home as well as formulate a good answer. I am not trying to dodge these questions but they deserve a thorough answer.

[More_Cowbell]

And let us not forget that the translation of Psalm 22 found in the Christian bible (starting with the KJV) has been mistranslated from the original Hebrew to better fit the crucifixion story,specifically 22:16.

KJV:
*Dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet. *

Original:
Dogs have encompassed me. A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

No where in the original is the word “pierced” used, it’s a fabrication by Christian editors to better fit into the crucifixion story. Psalm 22 describes David’s struggle against his enemies, it’s not prophetic of anyone’s crucifixion, let alone the Jewish Messiah.

In addition, the crucifixion story of Jesus is not very well documented, and on closer examination it is difficult to believe it happened the way it is described. For instance, using your example, am I to believe that Roman Soldiers placed a valuable robe (dyed purple garments would have been quite expensive) on a bloodied criminal, only later to take the torn, now blood soaked rags off of him to divide up amongst themselves? Sorry, blood soaked, torn clothes would have been worthless. The author of John used his knowledge of Psalm 22 to draw on to show “fulfillment” of scriptures while using a bit of symbolism as well (purple robe=royalty). Great for story telling though.

[More_Cowbell]

*Originally posted by ummm… yeahh… *
**
This is a good point. My rebuttal would be:

1. The writers of the gospels suffered immense torture and death for what they wrote. I don’t see how they would be willing to suffer the immense pain and torture for what they new was a lie. This is a whole other debate though!

2. If this is all a mass conspiracy, wouldn’t it have been better to make the prophecies of the Messiah much less specific? Why would David (and many others) be so specific about the Messiah? Wouldn’t it be better to just refer to “a death” rather than specific events of his death?

3. Jesus fufills prophecy all throughout the old testament. Of course, the old testament was written by many authors. I find that each old testament prophecy seems to agree with others from different books. So if this is a conspiracy, it would have to span thousands of years and many different authors, including the 4 authors of the gospels. This conspiracy would have to start with Moses, who made the first biblical reference to the Messiah in Genesis 3:15-

*.**. 3:15I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel." ** *

4. Who would want Jesus to be the Messiah? Judaism has rejected Jesus as their Messiah. Why would early Christians, who were Jews, try to formulate this conspiracy unless a) they believed He was the Messiah and were willing to “fib” on the details or b) It is as they say.

5. The writers of the gospels would have had to conspire together to write the gospels. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John got together and said “OK, here’s the story”?? Again, too much info to be able to lie and stay consistent. The gospels tell variations of the same stories but they do not contradict the other versions.

**

Your points in order:
1.) Unless they didn’t know it was a lie. Just because someone is convinced something is true doesn’t make it such. These writers of the gospel were more than likely not eyewitnesses of the stories they describe. In addition, the stories of the immense torture and pain you describe are written in books that the church didn’t see fit to include in the canon itself. Unless I’m supposed to believe disciples were baptising lions and having “raise the dead” contests in Rome.

2.) The prophecies of the Jewish Messiah are quite specific. (Isaiah 2, 11, 42; 59:20; Jeremiah 23, 30, 33; 48:47; 49:39; Ezekiel 38:16;Hosea 3:4-3:5; Micah 4; Zephaniah 3:9; Zechariah 14:9; Daniel 10:14) Jesus fulfilled none of them. That is what the whole “second coming” is about in Christianity.

3.) See above. In addtion, your referenced verse is not a messianic prophecy. Christianity needed to grab onto every verse they could to create a Jesus Mesiah, this is yet another example. Go a little further in Genesis, and you’ll see that God states than man can overcome sin by himself (sin is crouching …), no need for a intermidiary.

4.) They didn’t accept him as the Messiah for good reason. These early Jews you talk of expected his imminent return to fulfill the Messianic prophecy. It didn’t happened. So the early church turned to Pagans to turn into converts since the Jews knew he wasn’t “the one”.

5.) Maybe because three of the four come from one source (Q) and these non-eye-witnesses just borrowed from that telling of the story. No conspiracy, maybe just a bit of creative copying.

[ummm.yeahh]

*Originally posted by ThunderBug *
**And let us not forget that the translation of Psalm 22 found in the Christian bible (starting with the KJV) has been mistranslated from the original Hebrew to better fit the crucifixion story,specifically 22:16.

KJV:
*Dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierced my hands and my feet. *

Original:
Dogs have encompassed me. A company of evildoers has enclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet.

No where in the original is the word “pierced” used, it’s a fabrication by Christian editors to better fit into the crucifixion story. Psalm 22 describes David’s struggle against his enemies, it’s not prophetic of anyone’s crucifixion, let alone the Jewish Messiah.

In addition, the crucifixion story of Jesus is not very well documented, and on closer examination it is difficult to believe it happened the way it is described. For instance, using your example, am I to believe that Roman Soldiers placed a valuable robe (dyed purple garments would have been quite expensive) on a bloodied criminal, only later to take the torn, now blood soaked rags off of him to divide up amongst themselves? Sorry, blood soaked, torn clothes would have been worthless. The author of John used his knowledge of Psalm 22 to draw on to show “fulfillment” of scriptures while using a bit of symbolism as well (purple robe=royalty). Great for story telling though. **

Thunderbug

I sure could use a cite for this. The best literal translation I have seen is Young’s Literal Translation from 1898. I looked up Psalm 22 and as you can see through this link it clearly does say “pierced”.

[JThunder]

*Originally posted by andros *
Anyhoo, here’s my question: If the violence that is occurring is a necessary prerequisite for Christ’s return, why? I mean, don’t you think it’s a little ghoulish to say “yay, people are dying horribly! Christ is coming back soon!”?

Only if people are taking delight in the deaths themselves. It seems to me that dreamer doesn’t relish these deaths, but that he/she is taking comfort and pleasure in the belief that this means Jesus is coming back soon. It is perfectly possible to be pleased about the latter, without delighting in the former.

[Puzzle_Boy]

Except part of the temple still exists pretty much intact…the Wailing Wall

Captain Amazing Can you give any refferance to back up that statement? Because I don’t think you are being acurate. The Wailing Wall is not actually a part of the original temple.

Well, or the writers of the gospels knew the prophecies and wrote the crucifixion story to fit them.

That is quite a streach of your imagination! You are saying that 4 guys who were not scholars by any means decided to get together and trick peers of thier own religion while knowing that they would persecuted, thrown in jail, and eventually killed themselves. Even if your delusion was true, why would they do it?
Hmm…

Here are some refferances to outside writers who confirmed the story.

**Confirmation From Other Writers from Jesus’ Time: The sayings and events recorded in the gospels have a substantial amount of confirmation in other writings. Other sources, written by different people, in different places, with different religious convictions verify different parts of the gospels. **

Roman writers: The impact of Christians and Christianity was felt in the Roman empire in a rather quick fashion (for the ancient world) and this impact is recorded by two Roman historians - Tacitus and Suetonius. In talking about Christians, Tacitus, who wrote about 120 AD, confirms some of what the gospels and the book of Acts record. Namely, that there was a Jesus, a man who was crucified by Pontius Pilate and there was a growth of the following of Jesus after his death. Around 120 AD, a Roman governor Pliny, wrote letters to the emperor. He does not give direct account of Jesus but does make it clear that Jesus’ followers were convinced that Jesus was God and they regularly met to share a meal, perhaps referring to the ‘communion’ meal established by Jesus.

Jewish writers: Josephus a Jewish man who wrote a great deal about Roman and Jewish history around the time of Jesus. He confirms a remarkable amount of the gospel records. In particular, he confirms that Jesus had a brother James, that John the Baptist existed around the time of Jesus, that John the Baptist did baptize people, called people to good deeds and was killed by Herod. Josephus also states that Jesus was crucified during Pilate’s reign and makes reference to the wisdom, miracles and claims to Messiah that surrounded Jesus. Rabbi Eliezer who is thought to have written after 70 A.D. verifies in his writing that Jesus taught that he was God and that he would depart and return.

Other non-Christian writers: A writer by the name Thallus, who is thought to have been Samaritan and written in about 52 A.D., also mentions the crucifixion of Jesus. The interesting thing is that he independently confirms that darkness fell over Jerusalem the day that Jesus died (Matthew 27:45). A letter written by a Mara bar Serapion some time after 73 A.D. also verifies the life and death of Jesus.

[andros]

These are my questions, for Karallen or ummm… yeahh… or whomever:

1. What Biblical prophecies are being fulfilled right now?

2. Why are you so certain that you are right, given the vast number of people in the past who have been wrong?

3. Why do you believe that Gog and Magog are the Soviets, or the Russians, or whoever?

4. What documentation can you provide that Jesus the Nazarene even existed? Or that he was crucified by the Romans?

Thanks!

[Puzzle_Boy]

You haven’t yet commented on the evidence that the creation of the state of Israel in fulfillment of Ezekiel might actually have been conscious.

Why does this even matter? Prophacy has been fulfilled. Oh, but it was a big conspiracy, right!! It was not a self fulfilling prophacy because the original prophet could have done nothing to effect the fulfillment. So, you see, this whole arguement is pointless and mute!

[ummm.yeahh]

Here’s another great link . Please look at this if interested.