# Gods omnipotence?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [December 3, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805 "2004-12-03T00:06:40Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 2
### Author:  [@Terrificus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrificus)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/21 "2004-12-03T19:29:23Z")
I always thought this question was pretty pointless. Why try to measure something that is completely unmeasurable? You can’t quantify God, grace, spirit or any of that stuff.
The whole thing is metaphorical. Either you dig it or you don’t (like me). Is there being of ultimate good controlling the universe? Who the hell knows. If I meet it, I’ll thank it for the gift of fermented beverages.
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### Author:  [@vetbridge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vetbridge)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/22 "2004-12-03T20:44:42Z")
> [@barry sanders](#):
>
> I was wondering the other day can God make a rock so heavy that he can’t lift it
He may be unable to lift it, but if he is as smart as folks say he would figger out the Archimedes lever thing and move it dat way!
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/23 "2004-12-03T21:30:17Z")
> [@Meatros](#):
>
> If this is so, then doesn’t it suggest that God could have created logic differently? The problem with this is, that it is impossible for logic to be different. In no universe could A not equal A.
Why is that impossible? I’m not even convinced that’s true in our own universe, but only in the model western logic has imposed on it. But for the sake of argument, let’s suppose that’s true.
How do you know that it would hold in another universe?
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### Author:  [@Malodorous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malodorous)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/24 "2004-12-03T21:36:45Z")
Couldn’t he just move the rest of the universe down a couple feet??
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### Author:  [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/25 "2004-12-03T21:53:17Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> Why is that impossible? I’m not even convinced that’s true in our own universe, but only in the model western logic has imposed on it. But for the sake of argument, let’s suppose that’s true.
>
> How do you know that it would hold in another universe?
Because how could it be contrary?
How could A = B?
Another way to phrase it, how could my identity, who I am, be the same as yours?
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/26 "2004-12-03T22:04:24Z")
> [@Meatros](#):
>
> Because how could it be contrary?
>
> How could A = B?
>
> Another way to phrase it, how could my identity, who I am, be the same as yours?
I don’t know, but I think the onus is on you to show that it couldn’t, in some other universe. I’m not claiming whether the rule would hold or not.
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### Author:  [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/27 "2004-12-03T22:09:39Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> I don’t know, but I think the onus is on you to show that it couldn’t, in some other universe. I’m not claiming whether the rule would hold or not.
Um…How exactly am I supposed to give you evidence of it, if the only evidence that there could be is that there couldn’t be any other universe where the ‘rules’ were different?
That’s why it’s an axiom of logic-because there is no way it could be different.
The moment you think of a way is the moment logic become invalid and the world explodes 😉
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### Author:  [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/28 "2004-12-03T22:29:55Z")
> [@HPL](#):
>
> Personally, I’m still contemplating the question: If Jesus Challenged God and the Holy Ghost to a drinking contest, who would win?
Q. What would they be drinking?
A. Holy Spirits! A-hahahahahahahahaa!
With that out of the way, lemme phrase another, philosophically tighter, question in plain terms:
Can God surprise himself?
I mean, I can. I **believe** , I’m going to drive home to eat dinner tonight, but I could shatter my own expectations by ordering takeout pizza, crouching under my desk, and eating it at the office instead.
Can God do this thing that I do? Can he do something that he’s not expecting to do?
If so, then he’s neither eternal nor omniscient: he must exist in time, and he doesn’t have perfect knowledge of the future.
If not, then he’s not omnipotent: having foreknowledge of all choices he’ll ever make, he’s locked into them and may not choose anything different.
It is logically incoherent for a single being to be both omniscient and omnipotent, for this reason.
Daniel
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/29 "2004-12-03T23:18:04Z")
> [@Meatros](#):
>
> Um…How exactly am I supposed to give you evidence of it, if the only evidence that there could be is that there couldn’t be any other universe where the ‘rules’ were different?
>
> That’s why it’s an axiom of logic-because there is no way it could be different.
>
> The moment you think of a way is the moment logic become invalid and the world explodes 😉
I agree with the first paragraph. You can’t, and therefore you can’t make your claim.
I disagree with the second - an axiom is an assumption, not because there’s no way it could be different (case in point - different geometries have different assumptions about how many lines exist parallel to a given line containing a given point outside the line).
I disagree with the third. Consider a universe with exactly one entity.
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/30 "2004-12-03T23:19:40Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#):
>
> Can God surprise himself?
>
> I mean, I can. I **believe** , I’m going to drive home to eat dinner tonight, but I could shatter my own expectations by ordering takeout pizza, crouching under my desk, and eating it at the office instead.
>
> Can God do this thing that I do? Can he do something that he’s not expecting to do?
>
> If so, then he’s neither eternal nor omniscient: he must exist in time, and he doesn’t have perfect knowledge of the future.
>
> If not, then he’s not omnipotent: having foreknowledge of all choices he’ll ever make, he’s locked into them and may not choose anything different.
>
> It is logically incoherent for a single being to be both omniscient and omnipotent, for this reason.
>
> Daniel
Absolutely. God doesn’t have to play by out universe’s logic rules.
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### Author:  [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/31 "2004-12-03T23:21:04Z")
_ **our** _ universe’s logic rules.
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### Author:  [@shijinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shijinn)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/32 "2004-12-03T23:25:31Z")
Can a virtual reality Programmer surprise himself?
yes he can, yet he remains eternal and omniscient to the AI in his program.
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### Author:  [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)
#### Post date: [December 3, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/33 "2004-12-03T23:39:59Z")
Bender: “So, do you know what I’m gonna do before I do it?”
God: “Yes.”
Bender: “What if I do something different?”
God: “Then I don’t know that.”
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### Author:  [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2004, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/34 "2004-12-04T00:01:21Z")
General Questions is for questions with factual answers.
I’m closing this. Feel free to open a thread in Great Debates.
**DrMatrix** - GQ Moderator
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### Author:  [@John\_Kentzel-Griffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Kentzel-Griffin)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2004, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/35 "2004-12-04T00:16:55Z")
Oops.
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### Author:  [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2004, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/36 "2004-12-04T00:50:43Z")
… which should answer the question of whether a Mod is powerful enough to move a thread to the forum it’s currently in.
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### Author:  [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2004, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/37 "2004-12-04T02:57:51Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> I agree with the first paragraph. You can’t, and therefore you can’t make your claim.
Actually you’ve already accepted my claim as you understand what I’m talking about. 😉
> [@bup](#):
>
> I disagree with the second - an axiom is an assumption, not because there’s no way it could be different (case in point - different geometries have different assumptions about how many lines exist parallel to a given line containing a given point outside the line).
An axiom in logic is a necessity, not just an assumption. Were it not true we would be talking gibberish to each other. Since we can communicate, ie, since the words we write are intelligable and they stand for whatever they mean, the law of identity is intact.
As I’ve said though, all you need to do in order to show that I’m wrong is to think of a way the universe could be different, where the law of identity didn’t hold.
> [@bup](#):
>
> I disagree with the third. Consider a universe with exactly one entity.
And?
That doesn’t change the law of identity. That entity would still be that entity.
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### Author:  [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2004, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/38 "2004-12-04T02:59:07Z")
> [@bup](#):
>
> Absolutely. God doesn’t have to play by out universe’s logic rules.
What is God again?
Also, it’s not the universes laws of logic, it’s the law of logic. You are attempting to say that God doesn’t have to be logical.
If this is the case, then go ahead and do so-but realize you will be commiting God to utter meaninglessness.
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### Author:  [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/39 "2004-12-04T03:05:47Z")
Some ponderings on this:
Many believers do subscribe to the idea of an intelligent designer, you know: the old chestnut that since –for example- a watch has a designer; therefore humans, that are complex too, must also have one.
Suddenly, that and this criticism of omnipotence gave me this thought:
Using the idea of an intelligent designer, and taking this heavy rock idea, I then have to say that yes, god can definitely design/make a rock that is too big for him to lift. In view of the fact that I see examples of cars, battleships, planes, etc, that their human designers just will never be able to lift.
I don’t know if there is a god, but I am confident –seeing the evidence out there- that if he/she/it exist/ed, it designed himself out of the picture a long time ago (out of the current universe, that is).
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### Author:  [@Lorenzo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lorenzo)
#### Post date: [December 4, 2004, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omnipotence/277805/40 "2004-12-04T03:22:51Z")
> [@Meatros](#):
>
> Also, it’s not the universes laws of logic, it’s the law of logic. You are attempting to say that God doesn’t have to be logical.
>
> If this is the case, then go ahead and do so-but realize you will be commiting God to utter meaninglessness.
Why does the God of the Universe have to be bound by human logic in order to be meaningful?
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