# God's omniscience **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 30, 2011, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295 "2011-10-30T17:55:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/102 "2011-11-12T18:53:59Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I do not favor the idea that Yah was physically worn out and needed to catch some zzz’s because of inconsistency What inconsistency? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/103 "2011-11-12T19:02:01Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > He tells Adam that _“in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.”_ They eatest thereof and don’t in fact die in that day. He tells Abraham: _“Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.”_ Contrary word later comes down to Abraham from on high _ **not** _ to offer Isaac as a burnt offering: _“Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.”_ Neither of these tells us that scripture has to be inconsistent. If you are arguing (not to put words in your mouth) that because these are inconsistent, scripture must be favored which produces inconsistent statements, we really are on a fool’s errand. I disagree with inconsistency in the Adam and Eve story anyway. I think the rest of the scripture paints a pretty conclusive picture that Adam and Eve did in fact die, spiritually, giving rise to a need to be reborn in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. As far as Abe and Isaac go, I can see the need for Yah to impress upon Abraham that he did indeed fear Yah. This command gives something to Yah to point to in order to convince Abraham that he is worthy of being the father of Yah’s chosen people. If Abraham is not convinced of this, he might decide to go fishing instead of founding nations. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/104 "2011-11-12T19:05:49Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > What inconsistency? I mean I will not insist that the creation account means Yah gets physically tired on a premise that I must find inconsistency with a verse that claims Yah does not tire. I prefer to choose the meaning “celebrate” instead of “rest” because the scripture otherwise says Yah does not get physically tired, and scripture makes more sense to me when it is consistent. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/105 "2011-11-12T19:11:54Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I disagree with inconsistency in the Adam and Eve story anyway. I think the rest of the scripture paints a pretty conclusive picture that Adam and Eve did in fact die, spiritually, giving rise to a need to be reborn in order to enter the kingdom of heaven. So you interpret _“in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”_ to mean _“you’ll keep living for years and years, but the difference is that you’ll be as one of us, knowing good and evil.”_ That’s an – interesting way to seek consistency. > [@](#): > > As far as Abe and Isaac go, I can see the need for Yah to impress upon Abraham that he did indeed fear Yah. This command gives something to Yah to point to in order to convince Abraham that he is worthy of being the father of Yah’s chosen people. If Abraham is not convinced of this, he might decide to go fishing instead of founding nations. And so He first gives the command to Abraham, and then later – er, had the _ **opposite** _ command get relayed, to countermand the first one? > [@](#): > > I mean I will not insist that the creation account means Yah gets physically tired on a premise that I must find inconsistency with a verse that claims Yah does not tire. I prefer to choose the meaning “celebrate” instead of “rest” because the scripture otherwise says Yah does not get physically tired Where does it say that? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/106 "2011-11-12T20:05:04Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > So you interpret _“in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die”_ to mean _“you’ll keep living for years and years, but the difference is that you’ll be as one of us, knowing good and evil.”_ That’s an – interesting way to seek consistency. > > getting a bit strawmanish, Waldo. The difference I refer to isn’t that they would be “as one of us, knowing good from evil.” I am referring to what as known as the fall of man, wherein mankind suffered a spiritual death. > > you’re not one of those that claims yehushua was talking about zombies when he said “let the dead bury the dead,” are you? > > And so He first gives the command to Abraham, and then later – er, had the _ **opposite** _ command get relayed, to countermand the first one? > > Yes. My personal theory is that gives Yah something to point to when he affirms Abraham’s righteousness so that Abe can understand it on Abe’s terms. “See, didn’t you even obey me to the point that you were going to slay your son? Yah says.” “yeah, I did, I guess you got a good reason for saying I am worthy to found a nation dedicated to you,” Abe replies. > > Where does it say that? Say what? be more specific please, unless you mean where does it say “thou shalt surely die.” In that case, I’d point out you first put that on the table. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/107 "2011-11-12T20:08:25Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Say what? be more specific please, unless you mean where does it say “thou shalt surely die.” In that case, I’d point out you first put that on the table. oops I got a little ahead of myself there my mistake. Yah does not tire, is that what you are asking me to cite? Or that Hebrew translated rest also has a meaning of celebrate? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/108 "2011-11-12T20:09:49Z")
> [@David42](#): > > oops I got a little ahead of myself there my mistake. > > Yah does not tire, is that what you are asking me to cite? Or that Hebrew translated rest also has a meaning of celebrate? Actually, both would be terrific. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/109 "2011-11-12T20:10:34Z")
Sorry for how post no. 106 looks as if I am misquoting you, Waldo. I got distracted by others and didn’t arrange the post properly. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/110 "2011-11-12T22:25:39Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Twice before I have had dreams that seemed to have had precognitive value–both dreams concerned upcoming future events. Both dreams gave me favorable outcomes, and both situations had me worried. . . . I don’t think that a dream qualifies as a full-fledged revelation of the future… But… That the situations had you worried is, really, all that I would have argued for. If seeing a dream start to come true didn’t worry you, I’d have to wonder! > [@Mijin](#): > > Firstly, why all the underlining? It doesn’t make an argument more convincing. That’s what BLOCK CAPS are for 🙂 One more bad habit I’ll try to overcome! > [@](#): > > . . . Let’s say I offer you a choice of coffee or tea. I peek into the future and see you will pick tea. > But now I decide to try to change the future. I suspect that if I _tell_ you you will pick tea, you’ll pick coffee instead. So I do that. . . . This is interesting, as it parallels something Martin Gardner pointed out: since you are now interacting with me, your own actions may possibly influence the outcome. Thus, you would have to have total knowledge of your own actions, as well as mine. You would have to become a system that has perfect modeling of its own states. The recursion in that leads to information paradoxes. > [@](#): > > . . . Who knows what the solution to this paradox is? Multiverse? Actually, I kinda like that answer. It has a kind of magnificence that omniscience of linear time doesn’t. God knows everything we might do; God knows all the choices available to us, no matter how unlikely. God knows the time-line where I become a mass murderer…and the one where I convert to Catholicism and become a Bishop! To me, subjectively, it appears that I’m making choices – lopping branches off of the vast five-dimensional tree – but God sees the tree in its entirety, and, at Judgement Day, assesses my morality on the basis of the sum total of all my possible choices. I don’t believe it…but I like it! > [@](#): > > . . . So the problem is not with the knowledge, it’s with particular assumptions about how the universe operates. Agreed. That’s one of the things I tried to suggest in my overly-underlined post: it depends on how one interprets the implications of a revelation of the future. (I’ve always admired the quirky Delphic revelations, which aren’t of a darn bit of use to anyone! “If you cross the river, a great empire will be destroyed.” Oh, gosh, thanks a heap! I was hoping for information on enemy troop deployments, and I get a bloomin’ tautology.") ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2011, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/111 "2011-11-12T23:12:02Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Actually, both would be terrific. with both these urls, after looking at the page shown, please click under the column marked “Strong’s” for a breakdown of the appropriate words. Isaiah 40:28 > **[Isaiah 40 :: King James Version (KJV)](https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/isa/40/1/)** > > Isaiah 40 - Comfort ye, comfort ye my people, saith your God. yaga (H3021) is the hebrew here for weary. It has no meaning other than being physically tired. [Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon - EliYah Ministries](http://www.eliyah.com/lexicon.html) (type in H3021) Gen 2:2 > **[Genesis 2 :: King James Version (KJV)](https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/2/1/)** > > Genesis 2 - Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them. The word here is _shabath_, (H7673) wherefrom we get english Sabbath. Actually I believe that another Lexicon offers the meaning of celebrate, I thought I got that tidbit at Blue Letter Bible, but I guess I didn’t. or perhaps I got confused speaking from memory. Nevertheless the word’s primary meaning is “to cease.” Even if I’m entirely wrong about “celebrate” I am still correct that this verse does not mean that Yah gets tired in a physical sense. Grow tired of the way people behave, yes, as in the sense of annoyed and perturbed. I’ll see if I can find an online lexicon that also includes “celebrate.” as a meaning of _shabath_ ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/112 "2011-11-14T13:00:54Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Wouldn’t knowledge of the future also be a necessary part of “omnipotent?” If God doesn’t have the power to see the future in perfect and accurate clarity, he’s fallen a bit shy of being “all powerful,” hasn’t he? There is a quote in (if I remember correctly ) that God is quoted as saying,“even before you were in the womb,I knew you” That would mean that the Abrahamic God knows the future. Also if a person is evil saying that person will go to hell, is also predicting or knowing the future of people. It seems to me that would mean God has set the future already,and human’s actions would have little bearing on their actions,using Hitler as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/113 "2011-11-14T16:19:49Z")
_Knowing_ the future is not the same thing as _setting_ the future. (Well, ok, I’d say it probably is the same thing in the case of a god, but conceptually they are different things and hence there is wiggle room). ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2011, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/114 "2011-11-14T19:05:44Z")
I’d think that there are possible translation issues with that I knew you bit. ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/115 "2011-11-15T01:23:33Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > I’d think that there are possible translation issues with that I knew you bit. Yeah I’ve been attempting to deal witht that. Please see my previous posts. ---
**Author:** ![YoDoc](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/e68b1a/32.png) [@YoDoc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YoDoc)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/116 "2011-11-15T03:55:11Z")
I’ve seen them. Just pointing out another. Why do people assume the Bible was written in English? ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/117 "2011-11-15T05:17:01Z")
> [@YoDoc](#): > > I’ve seen them. Just pointing out another. Why do people assume the Bible was written in English? Don’t have a clue why they think that, not a clue, my man. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/118 "2011-11-15T12:56:26Z")
> [@David42](#): > > Does not our penal system punish transgressors for their free will choices to do a thing despite being told there will be consequences for such actions? You wouldn’t claim that our prisoners aren’t really guilty because they had no free will in the matter? Our penal system is of human doing, not of an all knowing God, we didn’t create the people and let them harm others, but your God did! I would try to prevent my children from harming others and have taught them to be kind and understanding of others, I and my husband taught them our selves, and they are good people. We taught them that if they touch a hot stove(as an example) that it will hurt them, and we didn’t want them to be hurt,then if they touched it they would understand. We would do all we could to prevent them from touching it when possible. We didn’t leave it up to the older chilldren to teach the younger children, we taught them ouselves and let them know for certain that we were their parents, not hide and expect them to know us. People who break the law and know they are breaking it have a bigger sentence than the young child who doesn’t know. Your God seems to make no distinction! ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/119 "2011-11-15T13:11:59Z")
As I see it the OT and NT( and any written material) is written by a human being who claimed a God said or did something, and humans are wrong a lot and exaggerate a lot. Because some one wrote, said, or taught that God said something doesn’t make it true. So much of the writings (including the Koran and etc.) doesn’t make God a good ,all knowing , loving being. It seems that they were trying to keep the people to be good by fear or guilt. Like telling a child the Bogey man will get them if they don’t watch out! ---
**Author:** ![David42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/5f9b8f/32.png) [@David42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David42)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2011, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/120 "2011-11-15T21:44:21Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > Our penal system is of human doing, not of an all knowing God, we didn’t create the people and let them harm others, but your God did! I would try to prevent my children from harming others and have taught them to be kind and understanding of others, I and my husband taught them our selves, and they are good people. We taught them that if they touch a hot stove(as an example) that it will hurt them, and we didn’t want them to be hurt,then if they touched it they would understand. We would do all we could to prevent them from touching it when possible. We didn’t leave it up to the older chilldren to teach the younger children, we taught them ouselves and let them know for certain that we were their parents, not hide and expect them to know us. > > People who break the law and know they are breaking it have a bigger sentence than the young child who doesn’t know. Your God seems to make no distinction! I was answering a post wherein the poster claimed that Yah’s threats of punishment eliminated free will in a transgressor. My point was that we do not use that reasoning elsewhere. If you tell your young child they will be punished if they do X, and they do X, do you go ahead and punish them, or do you say, “My threat of punishment means the child did not have freewill to choose to disobey me and therefore cannot be punished?” And of course the less a person has had a chance to learn right from wrong should be considered when punishing. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [November 16, 2011, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295/121 "2011-11-16T13:42:11Z")
> [@David42](#): > > I was answering a post wherein the poster claimed that Yah’s threats of punishment eliminated free will in a transgressor. My point was that we do not use that reasoning elsewhere. If you tell your young child they will be punished if they do X, and they do X, do you go ahead and punish them, or do you say, “My threat of punishment means the child did not have freewill to choose to disobey me and therefore cannot be punished?” > > And of course the less a person has had a chance to learn right from wrong should be considered when punishing. I told mine that their actions would hurt themselves, If they steal, they would be cheating themselves and others, because they , and all the people they love would be paying more for the articles,because the stores etc, add the price to things to make it up. Our human laws were made to protect them and all people, if a human law is unjust, we can vote to change it. When my children disobeyed I had then pick so many weeds from the yard, we had the nicest yard in the neighborhood. I didn’t kill them for things they didn’t know,I was not a perfect parent, and My children have forgiven me whan I was wrong. I taught them to be responsible for their own wrong actions. When they were at fault I taught them that it takes courage to go to the moon like the astronauts, but it takes more courage to be honest and take the consequences of their actions. The last 6 commandments were just comman sense, If one has the right to kill another etc. our civilization would collapse,we humans do need others,and I have found in my years that doing good and trying not to harm another was good for me as well. I believe the word understanding means to stand in the place of another and experience what they may experience.I am far from perfect and I do not expect perfection from others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-omniscience/601295.md?page=5)