# Gods sabbath day SAVED! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937 "2009-11-25T19:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/41 "2009-11-25T23:27:07Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > As to the song and dance and picking and choosing - you’re choosing to obey the Biblical commandment to keep the Sabbath holy. But you choose not to obey the Biblical commandment to put unruly children to death (and there’s a lot more I could have picked - that’s just one example of something I hope you, as a moral person, would never do). On what basis do you obey the former, but ignore the latter? EXOD.35 [2] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.[3] Ye shall KINDLE NO FIRE throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. Well Mr K i bet ya would claim that if i caught someone starting a fire on the sabbath, that i should put him to death because of scripture above KINDLE NO FIRE. Ya think this might be a parable? After all, common sense should tell ya that some of Gods people might be in the colder regions of the world. They might have to start a fire to stay warm or cook some food. PROVERBS 26 [20] WHERE NO WOOD IS, THERE THE FIRE GOETH OUT: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.[21] As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to KINDLE STRIFE. [22] The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. Seems so. Seems to have something to do with the words you speak. Any new testament scriptures that verify the old, that this would be a parable? JAMES 3 [4] Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.[5] EVEN SO THE TONGUE IS A LITTLE MEMBER, AND BOASTETH GREAT THINGS. BEHOLD, HOW GREAT A MATTER A LITTLE FIRE KINDLETH![6] And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.[7] For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:[8] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. Yup. No doubt about it. Once again the new testament verifies the old. JER.17 [26] And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of the LORD.[27] But IF YE WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO ME TO HALLOW THE SABBATH DAY, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; THEN WILL I KINDLE A FIRE in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. EZEKIEL 20 [47] And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I WILL KINDLE A FIRE IN THEE, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: THE FLAMING FLAME shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. [48] AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THAT I THE LORD HAVE KINDLED IT: it shall not be quenched. [49] THEN SAID I, AH LORD GOD! THEY SAY OF ME, DOTH HE NOT SPEAK PARABLES? Now if i was to read Ex.35 without lookin into other scriptures as to what that scripture was actually sayin i might come to the conclusion that they should be put to death for starting a fire on the sabbath. But…it is but a parable ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/42 "2009-11-25T23:32:14Z")
\*\*Deuteronomy 23:1 \*\* He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. This seems pretty harsh. So if you were kicked in the nuts during a soccer practice on Saturday, you are not allowed to go to church on Sunday? How do they test for this sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/43 "2009-11-25T23:33:57Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Thing is Mr. K because i follow no worldly religion i need not pick and choose bits of certain scriptures that fit their doctrines nor do a song and dance around any of the scriptures. I just read em and believe them. They all do fit together as a great puzzle if you do so. I seriously doubt that you murder enough people to be following every passage in the bible. Remember, many of them do not specify that you restrain your righteous judgement to the sinners in your immidiate vicinity, so to be truly obedient you should be personally slaughtering whole swaths of the world population. And, seriously, the scriptures only fit together as a great puzzle if you “interpret” the vast majority of them so hard that you are actually making stuff up and then distort the words of the text in ways that don’t even make sense to pretend they all fit. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/44 "2009-11-25T23:34:08Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > \*\*Deuteronomy 23:1 \*\* He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. > > This seems pretty harsh. So if you were kicked in the nuts during a soccer practice on Saturday, you are not allowed to go to church on Sunday? **How do they test for this sort of thing**? Itll be written on your face ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/45 "2009-11-25T23:35:00Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > \*\*Deuteronomy 23:1 \*\* He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD. > > This seems pretty harsh. So if you were kicked in the nuts during a soccer practice on Saturday, you are not allowed to go to church on Sunday? How do they test for this sort of thing? The only way to be sure is kick everyone in the nuts and then ban them all. Well, all the males. We can have the females be the priests, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/46 "2009-11-25T23:36:07Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > KINDLE NO FIRE. Ya think this might be a parable? After all, common sense should tell ya that some of Gods people might be in the colder regions of the world. They might have to start a fire to stay warm or cook some food. Wow. You don’t know much about religion. Orthodox Jews absolutely follow this commandment. > [@](#): > > \*Now if i was to read Ex.35 without lookin into other scriptures as to what that scripture was actually sayin i might come to the conclusion that they should be put to death for starting a fire on the sabbath. But…it is but a parable LOL … you’re just picking and choosing stuff that’s convenient for you. Are you refraining from cutting your hair at the sides of your head the way you’re supposed to? Wearing fringe? Avoiding bacon and shellfish? Or are all of those parables too? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/47 "2009-11-25T23:37:44Z")
**Euphonius** Can I field that one? Last time I checked it was seen by talmudic scholars as a ban on marriage. Further, some scholars hold that it applies only to those men who have willingly been castrated or emasculated. OTTOMH Moloch and Cybelle both required male worshippers to castrate themselves. This ban was a reminder that the G-d of Abraham wanted you to only lose the foreskin and to be fruitful and multiply. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/48 "2009-11-25T23:46:21Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Do you believe that Christians must observe to keep Gods sabbath day (friday sundown till saturday sundown) in order to be saved to the kingdom? The scriptures say yes you do. What have you been taught? What I was taught differs vastly from the truth I uncovered for myself. What I was taught was the religious hooey about keeping Sabbath. What I learned to be true is that religion is a lie from start to finish. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/49 "2009-11-25T23:51:04Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > EXOD.35 [2] Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you an holy day, a sabbath of rest to the LORD: whosoever doeth work therein shall be put to death.[3] Ye shall KINDLE NO FIRE throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day. > > Well Mr K i bet ya would claim that if i caught someone starting a fire on the sabbath, that i should put him to death because of scripture above I’m not claiming that, the scripture claims that. There seems to be little that is allegorical about the command to put someone to death. Indeed, it was taken deadly serious in the past. > [@](#): > > KINDLE NO FIRE. Ya think this might be a parable? After all, common sense should tell ya that some of Gods people might be in the colder regions of the world. They might have to start a fire to stay warm or cook some food. Common sense would say that God would be pleased that Saul spared the Kenites (a people he had no quarrel with), or the fact that he saved “…the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them” (1 Samuel 15:9). Instead God was furious that Saul had disobeyed his command to slaughter, so Samuel gets to go on a rant about the sin of rebellion. Is that a parable? Is God furious when you disobey him or not? Why would he be upset if Saul used common sense? > [@](#): > > PROVERBS 26 [20] WHERE NO WOOD IS, THERE THE FIRE GOETH OUT: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.[21] As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to KINDLE STRIFE. [22] The words of a talebearer are as wounds, and they go down into the innermost parts of the belly. > > Seems so. Seems to have something to do with the words you speak. Any new testament scriptures that verify the old, that this would be a parable? > JAMES 3 [4] Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth.[5] EVEN SO THE TONGUE IS A LITTLE MEMBER, AND BOASTETH GREAT THINGS. BEHOLD, HOW GREAT A MATTER A LITTLE FIRE KINDLETH![6] And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.[7] For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind:[8] But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. > > Yup. No doubt about it. Once again the new testament verifies the old. No doubt about that. Jesus says that he is the same today, tomorrow, yesterday and forever. The same God that sent forth his only begotten son is surely the same God that turned Lot’s wife into a pillar of salt for no reason, the same God that looked upon the Tower of Babel in anger, the same God that flooded the world. But you seem to be dismissing the Old Testament as full of parable based on its contradiction in the New? Even if that were valid (instead of evidence that the Bible, written by men and compiled over many centuries, contradicts itself) what of the things that aren’t contradicted? What of the things in the New Testament that you should be compelled to obey, things like: “Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ.” (Ephesians 6:5). That’s from the New Testament. Is that a parable? > [@](#): > > JER.17 [26] And they shall come from the cities of Judah, and from the places about Jerusalem, and from the land of Benjamin, and from the plain, and from the mountains, and from the south, bringing burnt offerings, and sacrifices, and meat offerings, and incense, and bringing sacrifices of praise, unto the house of the LORD.[27] But IF YE WILL NOT HEARKEN UNTO ME TO HALLOW THE SABBATH DAY, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; THEN WILL I KINDLE A FIRE in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched. > > EZEKIEL 20 [47] And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I WILL KINDLE A FIRE IN THEE, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: THE FLAMING FLAME shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. [48] AND ALL FLESH SHALL SEE THAT I THE LORD HAVE KINDLED IT: it shall not be quenched. [49] THEN SAID I, AH LORD GOD! THEY SAY OF ME, DOTH HE NOT SPEAK PARABLES? > > Now if i was to read Ex.35 without lookin into other scriptures as to what that scripture was actually sayin i might come to the conclusion that they should be put to death for starting a fire on the sabbath. But…it is but a parable Newer scripture may contradict older scripture, indeed I would expect it to. But how do you _know_ what is a parable and what isn’t? Is the Resurrection a parable? The Fall? How do I make the distinction by looking through scripture? Please correct me if I have misunderstood your point. It goes back to my view that telling someone to kill someone else isn’t much of a parable - it isn’t moral. “But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.” - Exodus 21:29. Why would I dismiss that and not dismiss the commandments about the Sabbath, which comes from the same book? What grounds do I have for doing that? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/50 "2009-11-25T23:54:36Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > KINDLE NO FIRE. Ya think this might be a parable? After all, common sense should tell ya that some of Gods people might be in the colder regions of the world. They might have to start a fire to stay warm or cook some food. > [@The\_Hamster\_King](#): > > Orthodox Jews absolutely follow this commandment. Yep, hence the cultural ambrosia that is [cholent](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cholent) which is prepared on Friday prior to sundown. Note that the commandment does not say that a fire must be extinguished, but that no effort may be taken by an observant Jew to start or feed a fire on Shabbat. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/51 "2009-11-25T23:54:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > **Euphonius** Can I field that one? Last time I checked it was seen by talmudic scholars as a ban on marriage. Further, some scholars hold that it applies only to those men who have willingly been castrated or emasculated. OTTOMH Moloch and Cybelle both required male worshippers to castrate themselves. This ban was a reminder that the G-d of Abraham wanted you to only lose the foreskin and to be fruitful and multiply. I had always believed it to be the 2nd one - basically a command not to mutilate yourself for a false god. But then it’s more fun to try to see how worshippers of today could try to interpret the “inerrant words” to fit 21st century culture. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2009, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/52 "2009-11-25T23:56:31Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > And, seriously, the scriptures only fit together as a great puzzle if you “interpret” the vast majority of them so hard that you are actually making stuff up and then distort the words of the text in ways that don’t even make sense to pretend they all fit. Scripture should not be personally interpreted. Let scripture interpret scripture and youll find the truth ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/53 "2009-11-26T00:03:34Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > Please correct me if I have misunderstood your point. It goes back to my view that telling someone to kill someone else isn’t much of a parable - it isn’t moral. > > “But if the ox were wont to push with his horn in time past, and it hath been testified to his owner, and he hath not kept him in, but that he hath killed a man or a woman; the ox shall be stoned, and his owner also shall be put to death.” - Exodus 21:29. Dont know about the ox. What if it were a pair of bull? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/54 "2009-11-26T00:06:03Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Scripture should not be personally interpreted. Let scripture interpret scripture and youll find the truth This seems very meta. How do words interpret themselves in the absence of a consciousness ? ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/55 "2009-11-26T00:06:17Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Scripture should not be personally interpreted. Let scripture interpret scripture and youll find the truth Scripture must be interpreted by understanding the culture under which it was written. Would it surprise you to learn that Onan’s great sin (Gen 38) was attempted real estate fraud? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/56 "2009-11-26T00:06:46Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Do you believe that Christians must observe to keep Gods sabbath day (friday sundown till saturday sundown) in order to be saved to the kingdom? The scriptures say yes you do. What have you been taught? That Christianity, like all other religions, is a myth created by human beings to control other human beings. Hey, I was raised in a family of Atheists and Pagans, what did you expect? Also, taking a day off from work is a good idea because you need to rest and recuperate, but it doesn’t matte which day of the week that day is. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/57 "2009-11-26T00:11:02Z")
> [@Punoqllads](#): > > Scripture must be interpreted by understanding the culture under which it was written. Would it surprise you to learn that Onan’s great sin (Gen 38) was attempted real estate fraud? I thought it was trying to get extra shares of an estate? IIRC Onan’s brother is dead. G-d tells Onan to have sex with his brother’s wife and conceive a son, who will be the legal heir to the estate. Instead of just saying no, Onan has sex with the woman but pulls out. So, he attempted to keep the estate all to himself, and to have the pleasure of sex without conceiving the heir he was commanded to sire. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/58 "2009-11-26T00:12:06Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Scripture should not be personally interpreted. Let scripture interpret scripture and youll find the truth But then you’re interpreting the scriptural interpretation of scripture. It’s just putting off the justification, the explanation, by one step. As to the Ox thing, it seems pretty clear. If it kills someone, you have to stone it to death and kill the owner. So, if an ox killed someone, would you then stone it to death and kill the owner? Why not? Why do you not follow this commandment but follow the commandment to keep the Sabbath holy? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/59 "2009-11-26T00:13:29Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Scripture should not be personally interpreted. Let scripture interpret scripture and youll find the truth LOL … take a look in the mirror. You’re just picking and choosing the parts of the Bible that suit you. What’s the point of being a stickler about keeping the Jewish Sabbath if you ignore all the commandments that explicitly spell out what you’re supposed to do to KEEP THE SABBATH!? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/60 "2009-11-26T00:14:02Z")
We have to remember what the original commandment was. The Jews added over a hundred more commandments (thats what i heard) to the original sabbath command. Jesus came and healed on the sabbath. His people picked corn on the sabbath and had a picknic. Jesus did not sin. He told them that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the sabbath. He also told them that He was Lord of the sabbath day rest. So…why in the world would any believer look for another day of rest? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937.md?page=4)