# Gods sabbath day SAVED! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 25, 2009, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937 "2009-11-25T19:07:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/161 "2009-11-28T19:01:21Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > DEUT.6 [2] That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and HIS COMMANDMENTS, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son’s son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.[8] And thou shalt bind them for A SIGN UPON THINE HAND, and they shall be AS FRONTLETS BETWEEN THINE EYES.[9] And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates You skipped a few lines there. I’m particularly interested in learning why you skipped Verse 4, which is, after all, one of the most important lines in the entire book. Or do you think that taking a few lines out of context and bunching them together is good biblical scholership? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/162 "2009-11-28T19:19:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are being silly. 😃 > > Worshipping the Sun is not the same as an Easter service unless you want to play games and invent new meanings for words. > And the word Easter, used, pretty much only in English–the overwhelming majority of Christians use a word based on their translations of “Passover”–comes from a Germanic deity that seems to be cognate with the word East and has no connection to Ishtar or Astarte, so you are including factual errors in your claims. In fact, by trying to link “Easter” with “Ishtar,” you are making the absurd claim that all of Christianity for its entire 1900 year history, is basing its worship on the use of a word that did not even enter any Christian denomination until a single country at the far end of Europe picked it up in the seventh century. > > When you base your claims on factual errors, you will have to excuse us if we simply smile and dismiss your nonsense. Heres more scriptures about the latter days you can smile upon and dismiss. DEUT.4 [27] And THE LORD SHALL SCATTER YOU AMONG THE NATIONS, AND YE SHALL BE LEFT FEW IN NUMBER AMONG THE HEATHEN, whither the LORD shall lead you.[28] And there **ye shall serve gods, the work of men’s hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell**.[29] But if from thence thou shalt seek the LORD thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.[30] WHEN THOU ART IN TRIBULATION, AND ALL THESE THINGS ARE COME UPON THEE, EVEN IN THE LATTER DAYS, if thou turn to the LORD thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;[31] (For the LORD thy God is a merciful God;) he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them. Have you ever heard about the commandment that says not to make graven images. You know…those things you bow before as you pray. Those things you put on the dashboards of your car (they ought to write a song). Those things ya hang around your neck. Those things ya make out of wood and stone. Well the bible says not to make these things and not to bow down before these things. But christians for their 1900 year history have done so HOSEA 3 [4] For the children of Israel shall abide many days without a king, and without a prince, and without a sacrifice, and without an image, and without an ephod, and without teraphim:[5] AFTERWARD SHALL THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL RETURN, and seek the LORD their God, and David their king; and shall fear the LORD and his goodness IN THE LATTER DAYS. In the last days things will get better for the scattered 10 tribes DEUT. 12 [29] When the Lord thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; [30] Take heed to thyself that thou BE NOT SNARED BY FOLLOWING THEM, after that they be destroyed from before thee; AND THAT THOU ENQUIRE NOT AFTER THEIR GODS, SAYING, HOW DID THESE NATIONS SERVE THEIR GODS? EVEN SO WILL I DO LIKEWISE. [31] Thou shalt not do so unto the Lord thy God: for every abomination to the Lord, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. [32] WHAT THING SOEVER I COMMAND YOU, OBSERVE TO DO IT: THOU SHALT NOT ADD THERETO, NOR DIMINISH FROM IT. The scriptures pointed out to the scattered tribes not to worship God as… well just read it for yourself. Christianty almost right from the beginning started following the practice of baal and they still are today. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/163 "2009-11-28T19:24:19Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You skipped a few lines there. I’m particularly interested in learning why you skipped Verse 4, which is, after all, one of the most important lines in the entire book. > > Or do you think that taking a few lines out of context and bunching them together is good biblical scholership? Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: Im not sure your point. I skip posting some for the sake of room in a post. Why does skipping verse 4 bother you? Dont you believe theres only one God ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/164 "2009-11-28T19:39:19Z")
You’re mangling the Shema. Don’t do that. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/165 "2009-11-28T19:41:59Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Have you ever heard about the commandment that says not to make graven images. You know…those things you bow before as you pray. Those things you put on the dashboards of your car (they ought to write a song). Those things ya hang around your neck. Those things ya make out of wood and stone. Well the bible says not to make these things and not to bow down before these things. But christians for their 1900 year history have done so So i guess god must have just forgotten about that commandment when he instructed Moses to create the [Neshushtan](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nehushtan)in [Numbers 21:6-8](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Numbers%2021:6-8&version=NIV) > [@](#): > > Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. > > 8 The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” And what about the golden cherubim god directed Moses to place on the Ark of the Covenant (E[xodus 25:18-22](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2025:18-25:22&version=NKJV)) > [@](#): > > 18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work you shall make them at the two ends of the mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub at one end, and the other cherub at the other end; you shall make the cherubim at the two ends of it _of one piece_ with the mercy seat. 20 And the cherubim shall stretch out _their_ wings above, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and they shall face one another; the faces of the cherubim _shall be_ toward the mercy seat. 21 You shall put the mercy seat on top of the ark, and in the ark you shall put the Testimony that I will give you. 22 And there I will meet with you, and I will speak with you from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim which _are_ on the ark of the Testimony, about everything which I will give you in commandment to the children of Israel. The problem with your god is he doesn’t remember which of his commandments contradict the other commandments. Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t, if you will. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/166 "2009-11-28T19:47:53Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are being silly. 😃 > > Worshipping the Sun is not the same as an Easter service unless you want to play games and invent new meanings for words. > And the word Easter, used, pretty much only in English–the overwhelming majority of Christians use a word based on their translations of “Passover”–comes from a Germanic deity that seems to be cognate with the word East and has no connection to Ishtar or Astarte, so you are including factual errors in your claims. In fact, by trying to link “Easter” with “Ishtar,” you are making the absurd claim that all of Christianity for its entire 1900 year history, is basing its worship on the use of a word that did not even enter any Christian denomination until a single country at the far end of Europe picked it up in the seventh century. > > When you base your claims on factual errors, you will have to excuse us if we simply smile and dismiss your nonsense. Before you dismiss those scriptures about Tammuz as pertaining to the way so called christians worship their god. Go read about him. Tammuz was killed by a wild boar. Semiramus is said to have WEPT for Tammuz 4o days, after which, he would be resurrected 40 days? How many days is lent? Is lent is still be followed by todays christians? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/167 "2009-11-28T19:49:14Z")
This thread has been pretty educational - I was sure that the OP’s species of “ban-Christmas” Puritan had gone out of style with the Restoration. I had no idea they were still extant. ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/168 "2009-11-28T19:49:41Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > You’re mangling the Shema. Don’t do that. The Shema? Whats that? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/169 "2009-11-28T19:56:19Z")
[right]שמע ישראל ה’ אלוהינו ה’ אחד. [/right] ---
**Author:** ![FlyingDoDo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FlyingDoDo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingDoDo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/170 "2009-11-28T20:25:16Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > You are being silly. 😃 > > And the word Easter, used, pretty much only in English–the overwhelming majority of Christians use a word based on their translations of “Passover”–comes from a Germanic deity that seems to be cognate with the word East > > When you base your claims on factual errors, you will have to excuse us if we simply smile and dismiss your nonsense. So you admit the word easter has to do with a german diety? Why would so called christians do that? Didnt they realize there is but one God. Taking the most important day in christiany, then naming that day after a pagan german diety. You dont see a problem with this? The name “Pesach” (PAY-sahch, with a “ch” as in the Scottish “loch”) comes from the Hebrew root Pei-Samekh-Cheit , meaning to pass through, to pass over, to exempt or to spare. It refers to the fact that G-d “passed over” the houses of the Jews when he was slaying the firstborn of Egypt. In English, the holiday is known as Passover. “Pesach” is also the name of the sacrificial offering (a lamb) that was made in the Temple on this holiday Above you have the true interpretation of the word passover. No german diety to be found. What you can simply smile at and dismiss as nonsence is how friday afternoon till sunday morning equals 3 days and 3 nights. How about the doctrine that claims Jesus was 100% God while on this earth and 100% man also. Explain that math to me. Whats the name of this new math? Quantom jibberish. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/171 "2009-11-28T20:32:22Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > In point of fact, Paul specifies what is required to “be saved”: "if you confess with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. And then there are those other parts that say otherwise: [Is Salvation by faith alone?](http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/contra/faithalone.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/172 "2009-11-28T20:39:46Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > So you admit the word easter has to do with a german diety? Why would so called christians do that? Didnt they realize there is but one God. Taking the most important day in christiany, then naming that day after a pagan german diety. You dont see a problem with this? > > The name “Pesach” (PAY-sahch, with a “ch” as in the Scottish “loch”) comes from the Hebrew root Pei-Samekh-Cheit , meaning to pass through, to pass over, to exempt or to spare. It refers to the fact that G-d “passed over” the houses of the Jews when he was slaying the firstborn of Egypt. In English, the holiday is known as Passover. “Pesach” is also the name of the sacrificial offering (a lamb) that was made in the Temple on this holiday Well, it [was](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C4%92ostre) - there’s no ‘admit’ about it, it’s a matter of historical record. To paraphrase the philosopher Izzard, Christians celebrate the death of Christ on a different day each year, based on where the moon is, for God’s sake. Then you have all this rabbit and egg nonsense that harkens back to the days when it was a (probably much more fun) springtime fertility festival. The same is done with Christmas. 25th December wasn’t Christ’s birthday originally. The causes are painfully transparent; it helped win over early pagan converts. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/173 "2009-11-28T23:02:12Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Semiramus is said to have WEPT for Tammuz 4o days, after which, he would be resurrected First of all, in the myths, Tammuz’s lover was Innana. Semiramus was a mythological queen, and, in the myth, the wife of Ninus, the founder of Nineveh. Innana didn’t weep for Tammuz for 40 days. Innana went down to the underworld and got trapped there, so Tammuz went down to save her, and in a Persephone situation, worked out a deal where he’d have to stay there for 6 months every year. There was a religious ceremony in the summer solstice in which virgins wept for Tammuz descending to the Underworld (which is also mentioned in Ezekiel 8:14), but the weeping for Tammuz lasted for 6 days, not 40. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/174 "2009-11-28T23:18:58Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Note that Jews don’t believe that keeping the Sabbath is a necessary condition for salvation, either. The Jews regard the 613 commandments (yes, there are more than ten) given to Moses as being binding only on Moses’ descendants, that is to say, the Jews. What about the descendants of the other Israelites contemporaneous to Moses? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/175 "2009-11-28T23:30:27Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > 1. No > > 2. That it’s all allegory at best. :mad: You mean _It’s all allegory except for The Red Book of Westmarch,_, heathen. That’s history. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/176 "2009-11-29T00:16:10Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > Actually, what you’ve got there is ha nephilim. Which would mean the nephilim. Nephilim lacks the hey character on the far right. > > ETA I’m a Jew. When discussing scripture, I believe we should and indeed must get into legalism. Thank you for explaining that. In my walk with the Lord I have found that the scriptures, or written text, talk to the mind, but the Word ( the spiritual essence of the scriptures, who is Jesus) speaks to the heart. IMHO eternal life and the relationship I have with my heavenly Father is not dependent on the correct spelling of the hybrid offspring of the sons of God and the daughters of men. Jesus taught: > [@](#): > > John 5:39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/177 "2009-11-29T00:22:04Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > No direspect kanicbird, but you cannot claim in truth that you"KNOW" you just believe (as many others do). Knowledge can be proven,you can only prove that you read, heard, or believed the person who wrote or taught you what you choose to believe. No one can prove that God said anything to any one, some believe God spoke to Moses,and many Bible characters but it is just taking their word. I doubt you are the final authority on what God wants,or says. God can and does reveal the truth. Without God there is no way of determining the truth. Pilate, a man who deat with the legal system and probably decided many cases admitted this when he said “what is truth” (Jn 18:38a). What you refer to are called facts, not truths, only God can reveal truths. > [@](#): > > The God you like to quote is not the same loving,forgiving God that Polycarp and some others believe in. I’d be careful with statements like this. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/178 "2009-11-29T00:25:11Z")
> [@jjimm](#): > > This may be the most sensible thing I’ve ever seen you post.Thing is, from an outsider’s perspective, any passionate proponent of _any_ religion sounds like you. A proselytizing Muslim _knows_, a proselytizing Hindu _knows_, a proselytizing Mormon or even a Scientologist _knows_. All beliefs are held with utter certainty, yet are often totally contradictory. > > There is absolutely nothing whatsoever that makes me think you are any more right than anyone else who makes similar claims. I acknowledge the unshakeability of your beliefs, but you are no more nor less right to me, than the hypothetical Muslim quoted by **Mr. Kobayashi** above. I understand what you are saying. It is not me to lead you to God, but God must do it. I do believe He does use me, even here, perhaps just a display of faith in something that appears to many so wrong. Perhaps God will one day come to you and make you stand up for Him in a way that you know sounds foolish to others. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/179 "2009-11-29T00:53:02Z")
> [@FlyingDoDo](#): > > Heres more scriptures about the latter days you can smile upon and dismiss. I never dismiss scripture. I do, however, tend to dismiss the views of people who parade their own ignorance cloaked in their personal beliefs as though they were actually the revelations of God. As I noted, you conflated two separate events that did not even match up in your own words and followed that with a display of linguistic and historical error. I have no reason to believe that any other claims you make, based on an uninformed 21st century misinterpretation of a 17th century translation of scripture will present any more accurate ideas. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937/180 "2009-11-29T00:54:04Z")
> [@Mr.Kobayashi](#): > > This goes back to what I was saying earlier, that if I died right now according to Christian theology I would be condemned. Although you’ve said that since Jesus/God has revealed nothing to me yet that I shall be immortal until they do. So I suppose we’re at an impasse here. You may suffer a bit in death, but not eternally IMHO, as Jesus has overcome the grave, God’s salvation even reaches there. > [@](#): > > My argument is that he does not teach…at all. And much of what is ascribed to him is not moral. I do understand. I felt that way, God has shown that my understanding was flawed. > [@](#): > > I’ve not heard this idea from Christians before, that God was somehow flawed and needed to purge himself. But then is Satan is an aspect of God, then surely God is not good. Only the ‘good aspect’ of him is. And you could argue that for anyone. I’d also got back to the idea that Jesus is the same today, tomorrow and forever - either God is eternal or he isn’t. A God that changes/learns surely speaks against the idea that he is all-knowing - if he were all knowing to begin with why would he change? > “For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.” - 1 John 3:20 This is something that is not complete with me, it does have to be better reconciled with God is Good and unchanging (which to some extent is done, but too long, and still I need more), and I very briefly went into it. > [@](#): > > Again, I think you have a somewhat different view of God than others…although to me they’re all equally valid, so. If God needed to ‘spawn’ these qualities, it seems he is somehow constricted - given the amount of strife that these ‘spawns’ cause on heaven and earth. If he were all powerful, couldn’t he purge himself of these qualities by willing it so? It should not be impossible; > “Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”” - Matthew 19:26 It is possible, I believe that is exactly what He is doing. Yes we do suffer in the process, but in the end we get the reward of being a co-heir with God’s Son of all creation, with God living in us forever. If it is a aspect of God, God can not destroy Himself. Also the God who is Lord of all is just, as such has to be fair to all His Sons, or none. > [@](#): > > He had to? Surely he doesn’t _have_ to do anything. What is this cosmic ruleset that God has to abide by, and who made it? If it was God himself, one who can creates can modify. God can not betray who He is, as such there are certain things God will not do, such as stopping the execution of Jesus, though Jesus asked the Father to. > [@](#): > > Fair enough, I don’t have much of a problem with the Christian Satan being none too bright. Although if he’s a god you’d expect him to know something was up, and the way some Christians talk about him he sounds far more crafty than God. In some ways Satan is a little spoiled child causing untold misery as he plays the real version of Masters of Orion against (I believe) Archangel Michael (and IMHO other Archangels) with whole worlds working for him. > [@](#): > > Yes! That’s exactly my point. The sins being covered because Jesus paid the price for them. Jesus is the scapegoat here, we are forced to pile our sins onto him. But we still committed those sins, they still have consequences, they are still our personal responsibility for them. Again in marriage the 2 become one. This is how God views it. Husband and wife are the same person. One can speak fully for both. In the case of the believer and Jesus, this to is a marriage and that one person has pre-paid for sin. The penalty for one sin is exactly the same as 100’s of sins, all it requires is 1 death, which is done. After which the person is under grace, which means God will not count his sins against him during judgment, though the child of God may get divine disciple. > [@](#): > > These things should not be paid by anyone else, especially by a man being nailed to a cross. Here you get into words over deeds, it abolishes justice; > Isaiah 55:7 “Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD, and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.” It was/is Jesus’ intention to reunite God and man. He desired this connection so much He was willing to come down to earth, teach us and instead of battling Satan, which would have just caused more division, He accepted death with faith that the Father would find Him sinless and therefore would be raised, and defeating Satan on the cross. His Love for us was stronger then His will to live. or to quote a song ‘He would rather die then ever live without us’. > [@](#): > > Ignore the past, pretend it didn’t happen - just pile your sins onto Jesus and everything’s fine. This isn’t moral! If we lived by this doctrine we could do anything we wanted, but because Jesus died for our sins we could just turn to him and everything’s a-ok. Except this demolishes our personal responsibility. If I sin, I can’t say that somebody else is responsible for that sin and that my stake in it is of no consequence. Because it would be a lie. OK, before I believe you asked for some clear guidelines, this is what the Hebrews asked for, and they got the 10 commandments. What God wants is to be our parent and that is exactly what happens. He is a loving Father and wants us to desire to be like Him, He speaks to us as a parent does, instructs us in His ways. Again if we do get out of line He will be a parent there to and do what is needed. This could include IMHO ‘shipwrecking one’s faith’ which is God will remove you from effecting the world, as you are not helping, perhaps one may be bedridden or confined, but in the end will be saved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-sabbath-day-saved/518937.md?page=10)