# God's Tebow-bias **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 13, 2012, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386 "2012-01-13T13:34:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/41 "2012-01-13T17:11:09Z")
> [@astorian](#): > > As I’ve pointed out in other threads, Muslim athletes HAVE given Allah credit for all their wins. Muhammad Ali invoked Allah at the end of every fight. > > Did Howard Cosell ever tell Ali, “Shut up about Islam, Champ, we’re sick of it”? > > Of course not. When looking for a nonpolarizing, noncombative athlete to make your point you went with Muhammad Ali? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/42 "2012-01-13T17:55:14Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > From my pursuit of knowing God, I believe God looks at the heart, at the underlying motivation of the request. > > There is a perfect heart, that would be the heart of God. If your heart is lined up with His you are God as Jesus is God as He walked on earth. You are also a extension of God on earth. > > When such a prayer request comes in, God will look at the reason, not just for you, but all that pray. If the intentions line up with His, He will grant it because that is also His intention, He is praying that the event will happen, and when God speaks (in prayer), it happens. I would expect that the intents that God is looking at would be more in line that the person wants to inspire others, more then to make a boat load of cash but there are no hard and fast rules. > > So in the case that both sides are praying for a win, and both hearts are aligned with God. Well God being God gets to decide. Perhaps one will have to lose, but in losing gain something far more valuable. Or just perhaps God will perform a miracle and both will win, basically God can split reality to have 2 outcomes that appear not possible, but it is very possible with God. > > How does the second one, the miracle play out. Some people will see one win, others will see the other win. God will select the people in a way that the conversation doesn’t (or rarely) comes up between them. In the rare case that it does it is usually years later, the person may see the crack in reality, or just accept that they were mistaken when they lose the bar bet of who won. You think God sent an angel down to get you out of a drunk driving ticket. Your opinion on God’s actions and response to piety should probably not be worth very much. On Topic: Prayer goes against the idea of God having a plan. So the Christians who believe in the power of prayer are chuckleheads. As it happens, devout practice of Christianity produces chuckleheadity. ---
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/43 "2012-01-13T18:06:24Z")
Here’s the part that gets me. Tebow is far and away the most vocal about his beliefs, but he’s also far from the only Christian in the NFL. Often in postgames interviews I’ll see someone casually thank God or mention their minister or whatever. Often I’ll see a large number of players from both teams kneeling and praying together before and/or after a game. The only reason anyone makes this sort of connection is because he’s so vocal about it and so many simply forget that probably the majority of the other 1700 players are Christian as well. Hell, tons of well known players are actually fairly prominent Christians as well, but it wasn’t blown out of proportion. Maybe the fact that he isn’t that good and succeeding beyond expectations makes it difficult to believe God isn’t involved, where seeing a player like, say, Randy White go out there and clearly be amongst the all time greats, making the connection with him having also been a reverand at the same time and God making him play better doesn’t seem as relevant. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/44 "2012-01-13T18:34:09Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > [An undoubtedly scientifically blind and rigorous recent nation-wide poll](http://pollposition.com/2012/01/12/43-god-helps-tebow-win/)found that 43% of all Americans believe Tebow is winning due to divine intervention. They think God wants Tebow to win so He comes and helps. What happens if someone from the losing team prayed as well…? How does God determine who deserves it if both people are praying…? Assuming you’re sincere in your confusion and not trolling: Tebow has never said he prays to win; he’s said he prays that nobody gets injured, and that he does their best, and no one acts dishonorably. When I played ball in (public) high school, we always prayed in the locker room, but it was never, ever “God help us win today.” Of course, even if he doesn’t, other certainly do. But there’s no contradiction implied, since nobody over the age of three expects that all prayers are answered in the affirmative. You make a request, and it’s answered or not. You’re praying to give yourself serenity, to make yourself content with what God wills to happen. You can certainly also request things, but anyone who prays at all has certainly seen their prayer requests go unfulfilled, and I’m sure that’s true of Tebow. Either way, a believer holds that God played a role in the outcome. Ergo, if team A wins, it’s because God willed or allowed it to. If team B wins, it’s because God willed or allowed it to. That’s why questions such as the poll asks are kind of silly; to believers, pretty much everything involves some degree of divine intervention, even if it’s just giving Tebow (or anyone else) ability and opportunity. For those genuinely inclined to believe, prayer is not primarily some kind of candy machine where you put a nickel in, turn the lever and the gumball drops out, and you feel justifiably angry if it doesn’t. Only an idiot who couldn’t remember the hundred other times his prayers were unanswered would think that way, and while Tim Tebow may not be a rhodes scholar, he’s not an idiot. Hence, while the “what if the other team was praying,” line may seem clever to a nonbeleiver, to a believer it’s a complete nonsequitur. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/45 "2012-01-13T18:37:57Z")
> [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > Maybe the fact that he isn’t that good and succeeding beyond expectations makes it difficult to believe God isn’t involved, where seeing a player like, say, Randy White go out there and clearly be amongst the all time greats, making the connection with him having also been a reverand at the same time and God making him play better doesn’t seem as relevant. You mean Reggie White. Randy White opened a chain of barbecue restaurants after his football career. There _is_ a famous pastor named Randy White, but he’s a different guy. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/46 "2012-01-13T18:49:40Z")
> [@furt](#): > > For those genuinely inclined to believe, prayer is not primarily some kind of candy machine where you put a nickel in, turn the lever and the gumball drops out, and you feel justifiably angry if it doesn’t. Either prayer works (to even some degree) and the gumball drops out because you put the nickel in, or god has a plan and the gumball will drop or won’t regardless of what believers do. Do Christians believe their appeals change gods preordained will? ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/47 "2012-01-13T18:54:01Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Katy Perry’ parents are [reportedly](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/13/tim-tebow-katy-perry-dating-mom-church-meeting_n_1204285.html) trying to set the two of them up. Do they hate the Broncos? Don’t they know the story of Samson? Goodness, gracious. Going from being a (self-reported) virgin to Katy Perry is a recipe for a heart attack. Or at least some STDs to report to the team doctor. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/48 "2012-01-13T18:56:22Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Either prayer works (to even some degree) and the gumball drops out because you put the nickel in, or god has a plan and the gumball will drop or won’t regardless of what believers do. > > Do Christians believe their appeals change gods preordained will? In my experience, most Christians don’t think hard about it. They view it as petitioning a king. ---
**Author:** ![ReticulatingSplines](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@ReticulatingSplines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ReticulatingSplines)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/49 "2012-01-13T19:14:38Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Tebow has never said he prays to win; he’s said he prays that nobody gets injured, and that he does their best, and no one acts dishonorably. And that the Chargers [miss their field goal attempt](http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/11/28/did-tim-tebow-pray-for-the-chargers-to-miss-a-field-goal-in-overtime/). ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/50 "2012-01-13T19:51:31Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Either prayer works (to even some degree) and the gumball drops out because you put the nickel in, or god has a plan and the gumball will drop or won’t regardless of what believers do. > > Do Christians believe their appeals change gods preordained will? That’s a theological question that differerent people answer differently, and I’m not really interested in the finer points of theology. But even those who believe strongest in trying to “change God’s mind” do not think something’s gone wrong if their request is denied. They ask, they don’t get it, and generally they move on, assuming God has better things in mind. That’s obviously a flippant way to put it, given that what people pray about is sometimes very important stuff indeed, but it’s pretty much accurate. My wife prayed her mom wouldn’t die of cancer; she died anyway; my wife still has most of her faith. The point is, it’s safe to assume that anyone who prays for a while has had many, many requests go unfulfilled, and has long since figured out that asking God for something does not mean you’ll get it, and has, however and for whatever reason, maintained their faith anyway. Thus, the possibility that someone else is praying for the opposite is not going to perturb them. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/51 "2012-01-13T19:58:14Z")
> [@ReticulatingSplines](#): > > And that the Chargers [miss their field goal attempt](http://offthebench.nbcsports.com/2011/11/28/did-tim-tebow-pray-for-the-chargers-to-miss-a-field-goal-in-overtime/). I stand corrected re: Tebow. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/52 "2012-01-13T20:39:36Z")
> [@furt](#): > > They ask, they don’t get it, and generally they move on, assuming God has better things in mind. Has any person’s plea changed the mind of god? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/53 "2012-01-13T21:54:41Z")
Abraham: Genesis 18:16 - 33 ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 13, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/54 "2012-01-13T22:36:54Z")
> [@Sitnam](#): > > Has any person’s plea changed the mind of god? Several times including Jesus healing the Canaanite Woman. It is shown as rare when God will not change His mind, such as went the King of Babylon was giving the dream 2 times, which Daniel confirms that God’s mind is firm on this and will not change it. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/55 "2012-01-14T00:03:30Z")
The national nightmare continues: [- YouTube](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAIQWzW1MIc) ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/56 "2012-01-14T00:14:12Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > The national nightmare continues: [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAIQWzW1MIc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAIQWzW1MIc) That is the worst thing that ever happened in the universe. Tim Tebow has officially turned a part of Christian America into a mewling throng of mental-deficients. I am hereby declaring a war on Christmas. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/57 "2012-01-14T02:00:51Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Assuming you’re sincere in your confusion and not trolling: > > Tebow has never said he prays to win[…] > Hence, while the “what if the other team was praying,” line may seem clever to a nonbeleiver, to a believer it’s a complete nonsequitur. wow you’re way off. the poll wasn’t “do you believe Tim Tebow is praying to win?” what tim prays for wasn’t ever part of the discussion. the poll is that 43% of people asked believe that DIVINE INTERVENTION plays a part in his victories. so,_yes_, these people \*are \*saying that _God is like a candy machine_, giving Tebow wins. _i_ didn’t say it. \*they \*did. so there’s no cleverness in the line; these people honestly believe God is intervening. so my question is if they think He is (and remember, \*they \*do, _because the poll freakin’ says so_) what happens if the other team prays, too? ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/58 "2012-01-14T02:01:09Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Several times including Jesus healing the Canaanite Woman. It is shown as rare when God will not change His mind, such as went the King of Babylon was giving the dream 2 times, which Daniel confirms that God’s mind is firm on this and will not change it. So was god fallible before or after he changed his mind? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/59 "2012-01-14T02:06:10Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > Do they hate the Broncos? Don’t they know the story of Samson? > > Goodness, gracious. Going from being a (self-reported) virgin to Katy Perry is a recipe for a heart attack. Or at least some STDs to report to the team doctor. i laughed so abruptly that you made me scare my dog. he should just date Zoey Deschanel. she’s the non-porno version of katy perry. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2012, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386/60 "2012-01-14T02:19:26Z")
> [@furt](#): > > The point is, it’s safe to assume that anyone who prays for a while has had many, many requests go unfulfilled, and has long since figured out that asking God for something does not mean you’ll get it, and has, however and for whatever reason, maintained their faith anyway. Thus, the possibility that someone else is praying for the opposite is not going to perturb them. you’re sure injecting a lot of logic in something patently illogical. and anyway, _what’s your point_? my question is still massively relevant: i have heard many, MANY coaches and players say “the lord was with us today” speaking of their victory. people who do this–who say this–i’m asking them what the logic might be–because if team A prays to win the war and team B prays to win the war (again, something people absolutely do), whoever wins says “God was with us.” how’s that work when both teams ask…? for the record: stop calling me a non-believer. i’ve already explained i’m a contradictory “praying” Deist. i just don’t logically believe that if there’s a God It would give a rat’s ass about football, my well-being or me winning the pie bake-off. i don’t even believe He’d care if i live or die or that my cancer will clear up or anything else. i do not believe there can be an underlying force that set reality into motion that can after-the-fact randomly and arbitrarily intervene without all of existence becoming chaos. nothing, to me, about that makes sense. in my mind, the “power of prayer” is the same as meditation or self-centering. it’s relaxing, focusing, and works in a personal manifestation way. i can’t imagine it’s anything more than \*only \*that. and even if all Timmothy Tebow prays for is people not being hurt–why doesn’t that work? players are still getting hurt all the time. how is God reaching down to keep a silly millionaire playing in the grass from breaking an ankle any different than asking the same God for free candy, victories, or a monsoon of naked ladies? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gods-tebow-bias/609386.md?page=4)