# Godwin for the gander - Senator Durbin shoots his fucking mouth off... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593 "2005-06-16T18:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/1 "2005-06-16T18:55:21Z")
[…and when called on it, refuses to back down.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/15/AR2005061502627.html) Now, I realize Gitmo isn’t a well liked place among most people on this board, and I’m certain detention there isn’t especially pleasant. Neverless, comparisons to a concentration camp, or a gulag, or Pol Pot’s prisons are certainly overblown. Coming from a powerful a figure as the Democratic Whip in the Senate merely hands our enemies some powerful propaganda, while doing nothing to address any problems at the camp. It inflamed a situation that needed no such thing. So thanks a lot, Senator Dumbass. You remind us all why this rhetoric has no place in politics - absolutely nothing matches up to a gulag or concentration camp in a comparison. And I do hope that those posters who [criticized Senator Santorum](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=943394) recently, and rightly so, for his idiotic Nazi comments have the guts to do the same when the comments come from a senator from another party. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/2 "2005-06-16T18:57:21Z")
I disagree. I think it’s a valid comparison. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/3 "2005-06-16T19:02:38Z")
I think Camp X-Ray will down in history as one of the darkest chapters of the current era. Instead of calling Senator Durbin’s hyerbole out, maybe the Republican Senators should work to put an immediate end to the utter fucking travesty that is Camp X-Ray. And where the FUCK do you get off saying that he’s giving our enemies propoganda? Speaking out against an outrageous violation of human rights and systematic, administration-approved torture isn’t what’s giving our enemies ammunition… The human rights violations and torture are what’s giving our enemies ammunition. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/4 "2005-06-16T19:03:32Z")
Anyone have a link to Mr. Durbin’s direct quote? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/5 "2005-06-16T19:03:54Z")
> [@](#): > > Coming from a powerful a figure as the Democratic Whip in the Senate merely hands our enemies some powerful propaganda, while doing nothing to address any problems at the camp And thanks to ever-on-message apologists, problems with the camp started unaddressed and look to stay unaddressed. If what it takes is shame, then shame is what it takes. Santorum absurdly compared his political opponents to Nazis in a dispute over Senate proceedure. Durbin pointed out that if we strip away our egoistic bias and look at the events Gitmo, we would not recognize the principles and ideals of our country, but rather the acts of barbarism that we are supposed to stand against. Your rant might appear more sincere if there was any reason to think that you actually cared about addressing the problem more than advancing your politics. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/6 "2005-06-16T19:08:54Z")
**Mr. Moto:** \* Neverless, comparisons to a concentration camp, or a gulag, or Pol Pot’s prisons are certainly overblown.\* Wait a second. I completely agree that it would be disgraceful to call American soldiers “Nazis” or “Stalinists” or to attempt to compare, say, the current administration to Stalin’s or Pol Pot’s regimes on the basis of the Gitmo allegations. But how is it out of line to describe **specific abuses** (alleged) at Guantanamo as comparable to abuses committed under those regimes? As far as I can tell from your link, what Durbin actually said was this: > [@](#): > > During a speech Tuesday, the Senate’s No. 2 Democrat quoted from an FBI agent’s report describing detainees at the Naval base in Guantanamo Bay as being chained to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures. > > “If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime—Pol Pot or others—that had no concern for human beings,” Durbin said. Is that unjustified or offensive? I certainly don’t mean to be an apologist for any politician’s military-bashing. But I have to say that the remark quoted there doesn’t sound unreasonable. Yes, if I heard a general statement about guards “chaining detainees to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures”, I probably **would** tend to think that it was describing events under some abusive repressive regime. So what is wrong with Durbin’s saying so? Is it just because it’s unwise from a propaganda standpoint? I could see that, and I think it’s a legitimate objection. But I wouldn’t describe it as “Godwinizing”, and I certainly wouldn’t put it in the same league of overblown stupid rhetoric as Santorum’s comparison of Democrats to Nazis in the filibuster flap. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/7 "2005-06-16T19:11:35Z")
**Mr. Moto** , what specific distinctions can you draw that would help us understand the error of our ways? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/8 "2005-06-16T19:16:35Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > And where the FUCK do you get off saying that he’s giving our enemies propoganda? Nothing scares me more than to hear supressive, Orwellian language like this start to become acceptable trade. Terrorists we can fight. China we can outmanuever. A cancerous eroding away of our values and principles from within: there is nothing we can do but speak out and hope others come to their senses. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/9 "2005-06-16T19:23:49Z")
Maybe it’s just me, but shouldn’t our standard of human rights be higher than, “Well, the Nazis/Soviets did a lot worse!” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/10 "2005-06-16T19:25:45Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > Now, I realize Gitmo isn’t a well liked place among most people on this board, and I’m certain detention there isn’t especially pleasant. Neverless, comparisons to a **concentration camp** , or a gulag, or Pol Pot’s prisons are certainly overblown. > [@Senator Durbin](#): > > During a speech Tuesday, the Senate’s No. 2 Democrat quoted from an FBI agent’s report describing **detainees** at the Naval base in Guantanamo Bay as being **chained to the floor without food or water in extreme temperatures.** From the [American Heritage Dictionary](http://www.bartleby.com/61/37/C0543700.html) > [@](#): > > **concentration camp** > > NOUN: 1. A camp where civilians, **enemy aliens** , political prisoners, and sometimes **prisoners of war** are **detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions**. 2. A place or situation characterized by extremely harsh conditions. On the contrary, **Mr. Moto** , if the report from the FBI, a federal agency, is accurate, I would suggest that referring to Gitmo as a concentration camp is well within the dictionary definition. Or don’t you believe your own federal law enforcement agency? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/11 "2005-06-16T19:26:37Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Maybe it’s just me, but shouldn’t our standard of human rights be higher than, “Well, the Nazis/Soviets did a lot worse!” Did they do worse, or did they merely do more? ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/12 "2005-06-16T19:26:51Z")
Here is an idea: What we really need is a new word for something that violates human rights, is obviously evil but we don’t want to compare it to past evil becasue, well because of something. I propose that we use the word naughty. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/13 "2005-06-16T19:30:45Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Did they do worse, or did they merely do more? At this point, does it really matter? ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/14 "2005-06-16T19:30:59Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Did they do worse, or did they merely do more? I’m pretty sure there hasn’t been mass gassings at Gitmo, with the bodies being dumped into large ovens. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/15 "2005-06-16T19:32:10Z")
How about [“absurd”](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8046041/)? > [@](#): > > “It’s absurd. It’s an absurd allegation. The United States is a country that promotes freedom around the world,” Bush said of the report, which compared Guantanamo to a Soviet-era gulag. > > He said the Amnesty allegations were based on interviews with detainees, who hated America and were trained to lie. There you have it. This shit couldn’t have happened because we’re not the type of people who would do it, and anyone who says yes, it has happened must be lying because they simply hate us. Faith-based truth in action. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/16 "2005-06-16T19:32:16Z")
Godwin’s Law doesn’t necessarily hold true when the comparison being made to Nazis is valid. It’s kind of silly to invoke Godwin, act like the argument is over because someone brought up the (_gasp_) Nazis and refuse to reflect upon it further. ---
**Author:** ![Binarydrone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3da27b/32.png) [@Binarydrone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Binarydrone)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/17 "2005-06-16T19:32:54Z")
> [@Neurotik](#): > > I’m pretty sure there hasn’t been mass gassings at Gitmo, with the bodies being dumped into large ovens. Whew! I was worried that evil was bing done in our name for a moment there. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/18 "2005-06-16T19:35:29Z")
> [@Binarydrone](#): > > Whew! I was worried that evil was bing done in our name for a moment there. What the fuck does that have to do with anything. I’m not disagreeing with Durbin’s comment, but saying “Did the Nazis do worse, or just do more?” is pretty fucking retarded since I’m pretty sure that, yes, they did do worse. A lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/19 "2005-06-16T19:36:15Z")
[“Mr. Baker, 37, a former member of the 438th Military Police Company, said he played the role of an uncooperative prisoner and was beaten so badly by four American soldiers that he suffered a traumatic brain injury and seizures. He said the soldiers only stopped beating him when they realized he might be American.”](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/09/international/09SOLD.html?ex=1119067200&en=f9b3f0a00a26cea4&ei=5070&ex=1087358400&en=fcdcebb72b746d21&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE&oref=login) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2005, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/20 "2005-06-16T19:39:00Z")
**Mr. Moto** is going to be so disappointed to come back to this thread and find that his bandwagon has been stripped of not only all four wheels but also the calliope. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=2)