# Godwin for the gander - Senator Durbin shoots his fucking mouth off... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593 "2005-06-16T18:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/201 "2005-06-17T16:33:21Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > No no–I am saying that we’re all supporters of torture. Great Og Almighty, you’re _serious_? Speak for yourself, asswipe. “We” are most certainly not. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/202 "2005-06-17T16:36:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Great Og Almighty, you’re _serious_? Yup. Now you can go back and read the discussion I’ve been having with **UncleBeer** , which you apparently didn’t do before you disagreed with him over what he said in it. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/203 "2005-06-17T16:38:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I’m a slut, **Lefty**. I shoulda known that about anyone who’d go out with Lucinda. Anyway, I’m consoled. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/204 "2005-06-17T16:38:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Is it fair to tar every soldier or every American with the same brush? Not at all . . . Precisely. And just as precisely, it is stupid to equate every tax-paying American citizen as a “supporter of torture,” simply because certain persons in out government are apparently sanctioning it at Gitmo right now. > [@Metacom](#): > > We can’t pick and choose which actions we support, though. Just because I’m legally obligated to give a portion of my salary to the government and they happen to spend it for something of which I disapprove does not make me a supporter of that something. Political protest is enshrined upon this bulwark. > [@](#): > > We either participate in the social contract by paying taxes and voting, and assume the responsibility for what our government does with our support, You keep throwing that change-up and somebody’s gonna hit it outta the fuckin’ park. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/205 "2005-06-17T16:38:54Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Sorry - I screwed that last link. For what it’s worth it was to a law course book at one of the big US universities. Not as authoritative as neo-con snuff-porn but it’s the best I could come up with. > > Some people just absolutely disgust me, I don’t know how they can bear being inside their own skin. :mad: You know who absolutely disgusts me? People who lack the reading comprehension my 7 month old has, people whose typing fingers are powered by their jerking knees. My post, bolded for the idiots in the audience : > [@me](#): > > All of you who parrot the phrase “Geneva Convention” as if it was the holy grail might want to actually read the damn thing. \*\*It applies to the treatment of uniformed combatants of signatory nations. If an enemy combatant attacks our troops while wearing civilian garb, there is a way to deal with them that is perfectly within the bounds of the GC. > \*\* Hey puddin, read your own fucking cite you moron: > [@The Geneva Convention](#): > > Art. 5 Where in the territory of a Party to the conflict, the latter is satisfied that an individual protected person is definitely suspected of or engaged in activities hostile to the security of the State, such individual person shall not be entitled to claim such rights and privileges under the present Convention as would, if exercised in the favor of such individual person, be prejudicial to the security of such State. > > Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention. If they are a spy or a saboteur, they can be executed by the terms of the GC. CAN BE. You posted a cite that proves my point, shit for brains. > [@tagos](#): > > Execution without trial. Great. You know fuck all about international law or the Geneva Conventions. Except I have just demonstrated that it is YOU who knows fuck all about the subject. > [@tagos](#): > > You are just a disgusting, know-nothing, murderous savage. It’s people like you that have irretrievably sullied the good name of the United States in the eyes of the world. How? By pointing out the truth? > [@me](#): > > **I think that these men should have been processed through the legal system a long time ago** , but pressing for a strict application of the GC **would have** allowed them to be stood up against a wall and shot. **That didn’t happen, of course** , because Senator Durbin and the lockstep loonie left notwithstanding this is not Nazi Germany, **but they could have been (executed)** by the terms of the Geneva Convention. So what’s your beef with me? Pointing out that some of the Gimo captives could have been shot on the battlefield by the terms of the GC? Or pointing out that they actually weren’t? What’s more abusive, a bullet in the back of the head or being put in prison? Oh yea, and when replying, don’t forget to expound upon how my personal opinion ( “I think that these men should have been processed through the legal system a long time ago”-remember? I bolded it just above) makes me a “disgusting, know-nothing, murderous savage.” Mhendo and DtC, you make a fair point, and nothing would justify putting a bullet in the back of any prisoner’s head now, but some of the Gitmo prisoners were captured while committing or attempting to commit acts of sabotage as defined by the GC, and we would have been within our rights to execute them. We didn’t, despite the accusations of Nazihood that some people like to make. My point is that if someone wants to demand that the GC apply to the prisoners at Gitmo (a fairly reasonable request, IMHO), then _all_ of the provisions of the GC should be applied across the board. Would either of you care to speculate on the howls of outrage that would erupt from the Left if some of these terrorists were executed when caught red handed, however? ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/206 "2005-06-17T16:45:08Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > I’ll ask again for anyone who wants to attack Senator durbin. If you heard about an invading army shoving glowsticks up the asses of captured civilians, siccing dogs on them, shackling them to the floor for days in sweltering condictions, videotaping the rape of teenage boys, etc… cite? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/207 "2005-06-17T16:46:08Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Now you can go back and read the discussion I’ve been having with **UncleBeer** , which you apparently didn’t do before you disagreed with him over what he said in it. 🙂 May I ask that we out a hold on that discussion here and take up again in GD perhaps next week? I’m genuinely interested in exploring it further in a better venue and hopefully with greater participation. I’m heading out of town for weekend in just a few short hours and won’t be able to participate until Monday at the earliest. (And maybe another topic we could take a look at some time is the place where all this started - “traditional American values” - what are they and do they have any meaning outside of political rhetoric?) ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/208 "2005-06-17T16:46:37Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Just because I’m legally obligated to give a portion of my salary to the government and they happen to spend it for something of which I disapprove does not make me a supporter of that something. Sure it does. Again, _a_ definition of support is “To provide for or maintain, by supplying with money or necessities”. There’s no question that you (and I, and all other citizens) have provided the money that is necessary for our government to do the bad things that it does, including torture. Therefore, we’re supporters of torture. Now, you may not be a _willing_ supporter of torture, but you’re a supporter none-the-less. Sucks, huh? ☹ Make you a little angry? :mad: Then do whatever you can to stop being an unwilling supporter of torture. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/209 "2005-06-17T16:47:53Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > …Would either of you care to speculate on the howls of outrage that would erupt from the Left if some of these terrorists were executed when caught red handed, however? I will extend you the courtesy of assuming you would be howling right there with us. If I am wrong, I have overestimated you. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/210 "2005-06-17T16:48:11Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > May I ask that we out a hold on that discussion here and take up again in GD perhaps next week? Deal! ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/211 "2005-06-17T16:48:31Z")
> [@THespos](#): > > Care to post something other than a drive-by? No. You don’t deserve one. You’re a fucking idiot. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/212 "2005-06-17T16:51:22Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > cite? Go back and read page two of this thread where Diogenes provided a citation when you asked for one previously. Christ. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/213 "2005-06-17T16:55:19Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > some of the Gitmo prisoners were captured while committing or attempting to commit acts of sabotage as defined by the GC Cite? Who in Gitmo has been charged with acts of sabotage? What is the _evidence_ that any of them were any sort of enemy combatants and how do we tell them from the innocent civilians? What sort of process should be used for figuring out which prisoners (if any) are actual combatants and which ones are not and when should this process begin? How long is it acceptable hold these prisoners without making an attempt to make these determinations and how is it justified to use torture and interrogation tactics which violate the GC BEFORE any determination is made as to the status of individual prisoners? ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/214 "2005-06-17T16:56:09Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > Deal! Cool. And thanks. ---
**Author:** ![THespos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@THespos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/THespos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/215 "2005-06-17T16:57:35Z")
> [@LonesomePolecat](#): > > No. You don’t deserve one. You’re a fucking idiot. Well then, seeing as how you’re uninterested in making your own case, would you terribly mind getting the fuck out of the thread? Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/216 "2005-06-17T16:58:32Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > cite? Page 2, idiot. Did you already forget the cites I gave you yesterday? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/217 "2005-06-17T16:59:08Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > Including Article 5, which is the part about how prisoners whose status is in doubt are to be treated by signatory parties as though they were prisoners of war until their status can be determined by competent tribunal. Since Bush is neither a tribunal nor competent, his presidential fiat declaring the status of detainees places the United States in violation of the Geneva Convention. > > Also, I don’t see anything about how they’re fair game and subject to the whims of their captors if the Geneva Conventions don’t apply. They should be subject to their captor’s criminal justice system. If the U.S. criminal justice system includes executions in the street then fire away, but I think it has more to do with speedy trials and stuff. Yes, a hearing needs to be held by a tribunal. But Bush could appoint said tribunal. He is competent to do so, being President. :rolleyes: If tribunal is held, and they are determined not to be POW, but War Criminals or similar- then they do NOT have to be tried under the normal civil justice system. Something along the lines of a Military Court Martial is legal- both under International Law, and according to SCOTUS. In other words- it COULD be: Tribunal hearing, Military trial, then execution. And the execution could be a pistol to the back of the head. This has been posted before, by me, in this very thread. Please read the thread before posting. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/218 "2005-06-17T17:01:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I will extend you the courtesy of assuming you would be howling right there with us. If I am wrong, I have overestimated you. Probably, but I wouldn’t be screaming “It’s against the Geneva Convention!” ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/219 "2005-06-17T17:02:02Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > “Abuse” occurs, but nothing like sleep deprivation, longterm interrogation, permanent isolation, flushing Korans or other abuses we have heard about. Well, sure, widespread celebration and management of rape isn’t like those other things. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/220 "2005-06-17T17:04:59Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Nice try. Why DO you have to compare it to anything at all? Why not simply point out the abuses and how they violate US law. That is the only standard that matters. Um, that’s been done. Been done for years now. And no one cares. No one holds anyone accountable. Americans doggedly refuse to seriously look at what’s being done in their name. If calling them out on what’s going on, pointing out who this puts us in the company of, then why not? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=12)