# Godwin for the gander - Senator Durbin shoots his fucking mouth off... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593 "2005-06-16T18:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/221 "2005-06-17T17:07:19Z")
Halliburton to build new $30 mln Guantanamo jail [http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050616/ts\_nm/security\_guantanamo\_halliburton\_dc](http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20050616/ts_nm/security_guantanamo_halliburton_dc) You can’t make this stuff up. As Kevin Drum notes, “no wonder Cheney is booking time on Larry King to tell us what a great place Gitmo is.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/222 "2005-06-17T17:12:07Z")
**Weirddave:** \* We didn’t, despite the accusations of Nazihood that some people like to make.\* **What** “accusations of Nazihood”? I’ve been trying all thread to understand where this rhetoric is coming from, and I’m not getting it. To repeat: - Senator Durbin did not call American soldiers Nazis. - Senator Durbin did not say that the **overall** conduct or policies carried out at Gitmo was comparable to those of Nazi concentration camps (or Soviet gulags or Pol Pot camps, etc.). - Senator Durbin did not compare our political or military leaders to Nazis. What he did was to claim that (alleged) **specific acts of brutal abuse** sound like behavior we’d tend to associate with Nazis. I just don’t see how anyone can view this statement as “outrageous” or “excessive” or “anti-American” or an “accusation of Nazihood” without interpreting it to mean significantly **more** than what Durbin actually **said**. Now, maybe your point is that any statement mentioning Nazis etc. **will** be overinterpreted in that way, because Nazis and Stalin and Pol Pot and so forth are highly-charged topics and people are likely to overreact at even a hint of being associated with them. So sensible public figures should avoid any mention of them altogether, in order to keep the rhetorical climate a little more cool. That, I think, is a valid point, and I for one am perfectly willing to support a general moratorium on Nazi/Stalin/Pol Pot rhetoric. I notice, though, that this pro-moderation faction wasn’t much in evidence a couple years back when the President and many other war supporters were trying to fan the flames of invasion fever by constantly comparing Saddam Hussein to Hitler. Hmm. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/223 "2005-06-17T17:17:09Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > But isn’t that the wrong thing to say? Politically speaking, I mean. Doesn’t that give your opposition fuel when the election campaign rolls around? Can’t they quote you and go, “See? They’re not proud to be American. They’re even ashamed to be American.” Isn’t it effortless to spin such quotes into anti-Americanism and hatred of America? I realize it’s an emotional issue, but can’t the root of your sentiment be expressed differently? > > How about this… > > As a proud American, I have to say that this sort of trashing of traditional American values by Republicans sickens me. We are the good guys, and what pisses me off is that bad guys are in charge right now. > > Something like that? Quite honestly, I don’t give a shit. I’m tired of spin, and I’m tired of partisan politics obscuring the real issues. Although I do agree, your comment would probably be better in the spin game. But I stand by what I said-these motherfuckers make me ashamed to be an American. (Of course, I’ve always thought it’s much better to feel GRATEFUL to be an American, than PROUD. I didn’t do anything on purpose to be an American, but I’m sure thankful I was born here). ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/224 "2005-06-17T17:21:34Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > cite? Ya know, this isn’t trolling, but it’s not much better. You enter a discussion being totally ignorant of the situation and yet see fit to hold forth. When you’re educated, you promply forget/ignore it, and go on to argue some more when your support’s been cut out from under you. You’re just stirring up shit. Piss poor form. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/225 "2005-06-17T17:21:47Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > Halliburton to build new $30 mln Guantanamo jail… what a great place Gitmo is." Ya know, if I had hired a contractor to build me a sauna, and he dug a hole in my septic tank, installed a water heater and handed me a bill for 100 times his estimate… I wouldn’t hire him again. Maybe that’s just me… ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tooth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c67d28/32.png) [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/226 "2005-06-17T17:31:00Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, a hearing needs to be held by a tribunal. But Bush could appoint said tribunal. He is competent to do so, being President. He didn’t appoint a tribunal, he declared them not Prisoners of War by presidential fiat, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. This is the case no matter how many smilies you throw at me. > [@DrDeth](#): > > If tribunal is held, and they are determined not to be POW, but War Criminals or similar- then they do NOT have to be tried under the normal civil justice system That’s great. Until such a tribunal with such an outcome occurs, they should be treated as Prisoners of War according to the Geneva Convention. This is apparently not happening, despite your insistence otherwise. The hypothetical results of the tribunals that are their right as per the Convention is not the issue here. Their current treatment as guests of the United States is the issue. Despite your patronizing tone, I have read the thread. I read the part of the Convention **Zoe** quoted, the part that states “No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever,” and I read the **Squink** ’s post that states “In a confidential report, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has said it found prisoner abuse”. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/227 "2005-06-17T17:38:10Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > So what’s your beef with me? Pointing out that some of the Gimo captives could have been shot on the battlefield by the terms of the GC? Actually, it would seem that the majority of the prisoners at Gitmo could not have been treated in the manner you suggest under the several Geneva and Hague conventions to which we are signatories. There are probably a handful who were actually taken prisoner by U.S. forces while carrying arms (although no evidence has been presented that they were not bearing some standardized method of identification), but the majority of the Gitmo prisoners were handed over to the U.S. after being captured by Afghani militia. They are, therefore, barring _evidence_, actually disarmed civilians who are to be treated in a wholly separate fashion. Instead, we have applied a name for them that has no legal precedent and we have chosen to ignore their rights under both the laws of warfare and criminal laws. (We could discuss the actual numbers of each case–except, of course, that the administrtion has chosen to refuse to disclose those numbers or the conditions under which any of the prisoners were brought into U.S. custody.) ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/228 "2005-06-17T18:06:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > If we’re the good guys, I’d HATE to see what the bad guys look like. [Here you go.](http://www.jquinton.com/archives/001089.html) ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/229 "2005-06-17T18:12:23Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the CynicThe abuses at Guantanamo Bay include frequent beatings, mysterious deaths, similar techniques of sexual humilaiation, the above-mentioned shackling in extreme conditions of heat or cold without food or water, “stress positioning,” which is the shackling of the victim in excruciatingly painful physical positions for prolonged lengths of time, various kinds of verbal and psychological abuse including the now confirmed desecration of Korans, and of course, the cruelest torture of all, the indefinite and ongoing deprivation of any contact with family members now stretching into years without any charges being made against them, without any access to counsel and without any opportunity to prove their own innocence.[/QUOTE] Could I get a cite that all this has been proven to have occurred at Gitmo? I am especially interested in light of the offhand reference to “confirmed desecration of Korans”, which seems to have been committed primarily by detainees. Also please note that I am asking for proof, not allegations. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/230 "2005-06-17T18:13:37Z")
Google on “amnesty international Guanatamo.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/231 "2005-06-17T18:22:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > If tribunal is held, and they are determined not to be POW, but War Criminals or similar- then they do NOT have to be tried under the normal civil justice system [Tribunal halted after judge rules system unlawful](http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-11-08-gitmo-court-halt_x.htm) (11/04) > [@](#): > > The U.S. government’s plan to try suspected terrorists in military tribunals is unlawful because the Bush administration wrongly declared that those captured in Afghanistan were not entitled to prisoner-of-war protections, a federal judge ruled Monday. The decision brought an abrupt halt to a tribunal here for an alleged al-Qaeda member. [Guantánamo trials ‘violate justice’](http://www.guardian.co.uk/guantanamo/story/0,13743,1507559,00.html) (6/05) > [@](#): > > The military tribunals of suspected terrorists held at Guantánamo Bay were a “tremendous failure”, a US military lawyer told Congress yesterday. > … > “We have lost sight of our fundamental values to the point that Mr Hamdan faces judgement for allegedly violating the law of war in a tribunal that fails to live up to the standards of justice required by that same law.” [DoD News Briefing, June 16, 2005 Mr. DiRita; spokesman](http://www.dod.mil/transcripts/2005/tr20050616-3061.html) > [@](#): > > Q How vigorous of a defense can they get, though, if their lawyers who were once full-time assigned to that job are now – now have other jobs? > > ``` > MR. DIRITA: Well, we'll wait and see. When there's military commissions, I think everybody will have the opportunity to evaluate for themselves. > > ``` Three and four years seems long enough to wait to get a reasonable system in place. Why hasn’t it been done? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/232 "2005-06-17T18:40:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I am especially interested in light of the offhand reference to “confirmed desecration of Korans”, which seems to have been committed primarily by detainees. > > Also please note that I am asking for proof, not allegations. > > Regards, > Shodan [http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-06-04-voa1.cfm](http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-06-04-voa1.cfm) > [@](#): > > An investigation by the base commander, Brigadier General Jay Hood, said the incidents included a prison guard splashing a Koran inadvertently with urine, an interrogator stepping on the holy book, and an obscenity written on the inside cover of a Koran. Inadvertendly? [http://www.politinfo.com/articles/article\_2005\_06\_04\_1926.html](http://www.politinfo.com/articles/article_2005_06_04_1926.html) > [@](#): > > The U.S. Southern Command, which supervises the Guantanamo facility, said Friday that in specific incidents prisoners’ Korans were kicked, stepped on, and drenched with water. In one incident, the report says a ventilation system carried a soldier’s urine into a prisoner’s cell, which got on the prisoner and his Koran. The report says that incident was accidental, but the soldier was removed from his post. It says the prisoner was given a new Koran and a new set of clothes. Yes, accidental… :dubious: > [@](#): > > “confirmed desecration of Korans”, which seems to have been committed primarily by detainees. Problem is: the proof both in favor and against seems to be coming allways from the military and the administration, independent confirmation is needed. Frankly, with independent confirmation this whole mess would have been avoided, or by not having made this boneheaded move of making a new definition for prisioners with the only purpose to avoid procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/233 "2005-06-17T18:46:23Z")
I find it interesting that Mr. Moto can be quick to pit Senator Durbin for this and when Senator Frist claims he never made a diagnosis on Terri Schaivo from videotape, a lie isn’t called out by him. So, is Mr. Moto trying to tell us that there’s a double standard and that his party can lie and not be held accountable for it, but a reasonable characterization by the opposition of a situation can be spun into something it wasn’t and is acceptable? ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/234 "2005-06-17T19:00:32Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > I find it interesting that Mr. Moto can be quick to pit Senator Durbin for this and when Senator Frist claims he never made a diagnosis on Terri Schaivo from videotape, a lie isn’t called out by him. > > So, is Mr. Moto trying to tell us that there’s a double standard and that his party can lie and not be held accountable for it, but a reasonable characterization by the opposition of a situation can be spun into something it wasn’t and is acceptable? Even funnier is the case of Rick Santorum (R-PA). When Robert Byrd (D-WV) made a reference to Nazi tactics in the debate over the filibuster, Santorum accused him of “lessen[ing] the decorum of the Senate.” Then, a couple of months later, Santorum did exactly the same thing, making the Hitler connection in the filibuster debate. If anyone is interested, Jon Stewart included clips of both these men’s speeches in a segment on what we internet folks might call Godwin’s Law last night on the Daily Show. If you want to see it, go to [this page](http://www.comedycentral.com/shows/the_daily_show/videos/jon_stewart/index.jhtml) and watch the video titled “A Relatively Closer Look: Hitler References.” ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/235 "2005-06-17T19:06:00Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ya know, this isn’t trolling, but it’s not much better. You enter a discussion being totally ignorant of the situation and yet see fit to hold forth. When you’re educated, you promply forget/ignore it, and go on to argue some more when your support’s been cut out from under you. You’re just stirring up shit. Piss poor form. Not that I disagree with you, but really, what _else_ have they got? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/236 "2005-06-17T19:15:29Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Ya know, if I had hired a contractor to build me a sauna, and he dug a hole in my septic tank, installed a water heater and handed me a bill for 100 times his estimate… > > I wouldn’t hire him again. Maybe that’s just me… For the analogy to work, you’d have to be paying the contractor with money that didn’t belong to you in the first place. Then again, being a man of impeccable character, it’d make no difference in _your_ case. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/237 "2005-06-17T19:48:54Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > I find it interesting that Mr. Moto can be quick to pit Senator Durbin for this and when Senator Frist claims he never made a diagnosis on Terri Schaivo from videotape, a lie isn’t called out by him. I find it easier to just conclude **Mr. Moto** is a shameless Fox-watching Bush-voting apologist, like a number of other foaming righties we have nowadays. Totally impervious to all issues of facts, fairness, and morality; the only matter is to defend the Bush Administration against any and all criticism, which counts as “winning” the “game” (and earns points redeemable for big prizes at the next Freeper barbecue). ---
**Author:** ![newcrasher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b3f665/32.png) [@newcrasher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcrasher)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/238 "2005-06-17T20:01:22Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Go back and read page two of this thread where Diogenes provided a citation when you asked for one previously. Christ. Hey fuckstain, pay attention. I did not request any cites prior to this request. Also, the cite that was provided on page two included nothing about glowsticks being rammed in orifices nor the actual raping of males. I think it was fair to ask where those assertions came from. Why don’t you stick to requesting we remove certain phrases from the SD lexicon, or maybe request we stop chattering about this until you can participate… What a pompous jackass you are. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/239 "2005-06-17T20:09:11Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Problem is: the proof both in favor and against seems to be coming allways from the military and the administration, independent confirmation is needed. Frankly, with independent confirmation this whole mess would have been avoided, or by not having made this boneheaded move of making a new definition for prisioners with the only purpose to avoid procedure. Well, I rather doubt that some, and several Dopers in particular, are going to be deterred from attacking everything and anything the Bush administration does by anything as mundane as independent facts. And ISTM that some responsibility accrues to “independent agencies” like Amnesty International not to blow holes in their credibility by making exaggerations. And I would say the same about the Dems, the rather strained efforts to parse this latest nonsense from Durbin as something other than what it is notwithstanding. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/240 "2005-06-17T20:12:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Well, I rather doubt that some, and several Dopers in particular, are going to be deterred from attacking everything and anything the Bush administration does by anything as mundane as independent facts. Nor will some be deterred from defending everything and anything the Bush administration does by anything as mundane as independent facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=13)