# Godwin for the gander - Senator Durbin shoots his fucking mouth off... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593 "2005-06-16T18:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/261 "2005-06-18T04:10:17Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > You want to make a strong statement about Gitmo? Fine. How about something like this: Right. Because those opposed to the Bush Administration’s actions in Gitmo, etc., have been making statements exactly like that for _four fucking years now_, and they have had precisely zero impact. So obviously that’s been working real well. Excellent advice. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/262 "2005-06-18T04:15:11Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Fuck you, **Sam**. So we should just ignore abuses because the enemy might hear us complaining about it? Fuck that shit. At what point did you get, “ignore the abuses” out of what I wrote? > [@](#): > > I don’t give a SHIT about what the enemy might hear. This isn’t about fucking propaganda, it’s about doing what’s right. I’m ashamed that spin is more important than ethics. You can do both if you’re smart. Apparently Durbin isn’t smart. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/263 "2005-06-18T04:18:31Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Right. Because those opposed to the Bush Administration’s actions in Gitmo, etc., have been making statements exactly like that for _four fucking years now_, and they have had precisely zero impact. So obviously that’s been working real well. Excellent advice. Then you FIND A WAY. A way that doesn’t involve handing an even bigger propaganda coup to the enemy than Gitmo has become. Maybe you go the American people and say, “I believe in a strong defense of this country. And in a war of ideas, the strongest defense is to _stand by your principles_. The Bush administration, in allowing the abuses at Guantanamo bay to go unchecked, is _harming the war effort_. I oppose this, and so should every American who believes in America’s ideals. And not just because it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s the only way to win this war.” Use suitably strong words. Call Bush a traitor if you want. But make damned sure that at the end of the day you do not leave “America == NAZIS” in the minds of the people you are trying to win over. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/264 "2005-06-18T04:22:40Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Right. Because those opposed to the Bush Administration’s actions in Gitmo, etc., have been making statements exactly like that for _four fucking years now_, and they have had precisely zero impact. So obviously that’s been working real well. Excellent advice. Oh, and I should add that Durbin hurt his and your own cause. He didn’t just give an advantage to the enemy, he gave Bush an ‘out’ by using such over-the-top rhetoric. Now the administration can take the high road, condemn Durbin, and use the condemnation of his overblown rhetoric to avoid disccussing the issue at all. Any way you look at it, Durbin’s remarks were stupid. All his did was appeal to the extreme base, who eat this shit up. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/265 "2005-06-18T04:25:38Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > Right. Because those opposed to the Bush Administration’s actions in Gitmo, etc., have been making statements exactly like that for _four fucking years now_, and they have had precisely zero impact. So obviously that’s been working real well. Excellent advice. I may add that it is odd that it took that misused and misunderstood rhetoric to make people like \*\*Sam \*\* and \*\*Mr Moto \*\* to acknowledge that what is happening in Guantanamo is not good. I have to point out that if Republicans and conservatives had spoken before against that this would never had happened. Having the gall to now calling some democrats dipshits for complaining about the results of shitty policies is what is really un-American. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > Use suitably strong words. So fuck you all to way to Canada Sam. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/266 "2005-06-18T04:26:13Z")
**Sam** , with all due, you’re full of it. There is no better American propaganda than public dissent. None. And all this crap about “emboldening” our enemies is just so much Bushwah! These people are strapping shit to thier own bodies and _blowing themselves up!_ Are you seriously saying that they were thinking about going bowling, but heard this speech and decided to go scatter themselves over the countryside? Get a grip, then get a clue. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/267 "2005-06-18T04:36:18Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Durbin’s remarks were stupid. All his did was appeal to the extreme base, who eat this shit up. Nah. Durbin did a heck of a nice job getting the issue of American torture out in front of a public that’s been wearing blinders for far too long. Call him a shitstain if you will, you’ll never get back to your happy days of “a few bad apples.” It’s government sponsored abuse now, and someone’s going to have to take responsibility for it. Justice will win. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/268 "2005-06-18T04:36:45Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **Sam** , with all due, you’re full of it. > > There is no better American propaganda than public dissent. None. > > And all this crap about “emboldening” our enemies is just so much Bushwah! These people are strapping shit to thier own bodies and _blowing themselves up!_ Are you seriously saying that they were thinking about going bowling, but heard this speech and decided to go scatter themselves over the countryside? Get a grip, then get a clue. I’m talking about all the people on the fence. The ones that don’t trust the U.S., but can be convinced that Democracy will work for them. You think this shit helps? ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/269 "2005-06-18T04:43:21Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Then you FIND A WAY. A way that doesn’t involve handing an even bigger propaganda coup to the enemy than Gitmo has become. Maybe you go the American people and say, “I believe in a strong defense of this country. And in a war of ideas, the strongest defense is to _stand by your principles_. The Bush administration, in allowing the abuses at Guantanamo bay to go unchecked, is _harming the war effort_. I oppose this, and so should every American who believes in America’s ideals. And not just because it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s the only way to win this war.” > > Use suitably strong words. Call Bush a traitor if you want. But make damned sure that at the end of the day you do not leave “America == NAZIS” in the minds of the people you are trying to win over. **Sam** , think about this a bit. Imagine you’re a young Saudi, outraged at the (very slanted take on the) news you hear about American activities at Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib, etc, and considering going to Iraq to join the jihad. Now imagine you hear an American opposition politician denounce those activities using analogies to Nazis. Do you honestly think that’s going to make any difference, one way or the other? Now imagine you’re a middle of the road Iraqi, glad Saddam’s gone, pissed at how poorly reconstruction is going, and really pissed because your second cousin’s kid got slapped around at Abu Ghraib after being picked up just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Now imagine you hear an American opposition politician denounce those activities using analogies to Nazis. Do you honestly think that’s going to piss you off more? If anything, you’ll be _glad_ to hear it, because (1) it’s evidence that some Americans are as outraged at what’s going on as you are, and (2) it’s a reminder that the political freedom to voice such vehement dissent is something worth having. If you want to pit someone over this crap, pit the people who refuse to admit there’s anything wrong with the shit that’s going on in those places. What’s going to be hurting the US in the opinion of “the people you are trying to win over” is the constant denials by Bush apologists. Those people are going to be already convinced that something is happening, and denying it is going to do far more to diminish their opinion of the US than a bit of overblown rhetoric mentioning Nazis will. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/270 "2005-06-18T04:46:18Z")
I think it _does_ help. They see not only that many Americans hate the abuses themselves, but that they actually have the right to stand up and say so in public. How many members of Saddam’s parliament would have been perfectly free to publicly call Saddam a war criminal or condemn his abuses without getting their nuts hooked up to a car battery? The freedom of the people to _dissent_ is far more attractive than you’re giving it credit for, and the more conspicuous we make that freedom the better. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/271 "2005-06-18T04:53:44Z")
Meanwhile, back in **Sam’sWorld** … Achmed: Abdul! Have you heard the wonderful news, blessings be on the Prophet! Abdul: Leave me alone, our insurgency is desperate, we are doomed… Achmed: No, cameldroppings! Sen. Dick Durbin just made a speech comparing American soldiers to Satan! Abdul: Not Dick Durbin, Minority Whip, who serves on the influential and important House Appropriations Committee? Achmed: The very same, who is also co-chairman of the Atlantic Committee! Abdul: Praise be to Allah, victory is assured! Let us go blow ourselves up, and become bloody snowflakes to the Infidels! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/272 "2005-06-18T04:57:53Z")
Oh, come now. It’'s moree like this: Achmed: My brother says Americans are the devil. Abdul: They are genocidal murderers. Even their own people say so. Their government admits it. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/273 "2005-06-18T05:06:20Z")
I think you’re still missing the impact that witnessing a visible freedom of dissent has on oppressed people. It works almost as well as plentiful porn. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/274 "2005-06-18T05:07:13Z")
No, **Sam** , no. I was _kidding_! (I do so _hate_ trying to explain irony to Canadians!) ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/275 "2005-06-18T06:16:33Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I’m talking about all the people on the fence. The ones that don’t trust the U.S., but can be convinced that Democracy will work for them. You think this shit helps? Nope… So we need to set an example by respecting human rights. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 6:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/276 "2005-06-18T06:38:19Z")
What **Dio** said. Also: where can I find the text for the declaration of war? I’ve never read one of those while the war was still on. N.B. I will only accept one that begins: _In Congress [on such and such a date]…_, and includes the phrase: \*…declares that a state of war exists between The United States of America and the nation of Iraq [or wherever this war is supposed to be against]… \* Otherwise I ain’t calling it a war. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/277 "2005-06-18T06:44:34Z")
We can’t fake freedom, **Sam**. > [@](#): > > **Mr. Moto** : it leads folks to dismiss the entire statement where they should merely dismiss as hyperbolic the one comparison. I understand your point except for one thing. The one comparison he made was not hyperbolic. There was no exaggeration in that one comparison. Prisoners really _are_ chained to the floor in their own excrement – in miserable heat for long periods of time without food or water. There are obviously many people that he has offended by pointing out how this practice sounds like something that the Nazis would have done. But it is up to the individual person – in this case, _you_ – whether you allow your distress to remain with his choice of words or with the human beings being treated in this manner. Maybe you don’t disapprove. BTW, I am considering supporting a member of the GOP in 2008. Don’t discourage me. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/278 "2005-06-18T07:43:38Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > But oh no, instead this clown has to score political points by making cheap comparisons to genocide and torture on a massive scale, and in so doing he has given the enemy a huge gift that they can use to drum up hatred, recruit more insurgents, turn populations against the U.S, and kill more soldiers. > > You wonder why Democrats are not trusted with security? It’s because the Democratic party has too many dipshits like this guy. So we’re better off trusting our national security to the party that is responsible for creating this whole mess and giving our enemies more than just words to hate us? The war in Iraq and the actual abuses going on in Abu Ghraib and Gitmo aren’t helping breed more terrorists but Senator Durbin’s words are? Man, we’d have won the war on terror if it weren’t for Newsweek. And of course, it’s not as if the republicans would make overblown comparisons to nazis. That would be as stupid as making a medical diagnosis on the basis of a highly edited video tape. Good rewrite of the Senator’s speech though. If only you’d gotten it to him in time. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/279 "2005-06-18T08:26:29Z")
> [@Apos](#): > > … Durbin pointed out that if we strip away our egoistic bias and look at the events Gitmo, we would not recognize the principles and ideals of our country, but rather the acts of barbarism that we are supposed to stand against. Or, if we strip ego away we might realise that the events of Gitmo are what America does stand for. According to the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/280 "2005-06-18T08:37:36Z")
> [@Lissa](#): > > I assure you sir, there may be times when people are not “nice” to prisoners, there are also times when someone hurts them maliciously. However, I can also assure you that abuse is handled swiftly in U.S. prisons. My husband works at a facility and it is NOT tolerated there. My husband fired an officer for simply putting on gloves as he approached an inmate and saying “do you want to go?”. “Abuse” occurs, but nothing like sleep deprivation, longterm interrogation, permanent isolation, flushing Korans or other abuses we have heard about. If they do, the individuals are FIRED, not protected under the system. > > Do NOT insult the brave men and women who staff our domestic prisons by comparing them to the tyrants of these camps. Damn straight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=15)