# Godwin for the gander - Senator Durbin shoots his fucking mouth off... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593 "2005-06-16T18:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/281 "2005-06-18T08:43:20Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Mr Moto** , you are aware that the prisoners at Gitmo do **not** have the rights of Prisoners of War, aren’t you? An alternative phrasing is that they _do_ have GC rights but the US admistration has looked at the definition of “war crime” and decided “yep, that’s us” and made a considered policy decision to deny persons the rights they are afforded by law. Least that’s kinda what the Sup Ct said. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/282 "2005-06-18T08:44:46Z")
> [@Mockingbird](#): > > I think Moto is an insult to the very concept of honesty. > > Anything to further your repressive agenda. I’ve generally found **Mr Moto]** pretty decent. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/283 "2005-06-18T08:47:43Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > There’s been several threads on this in GD. The Prisoners at Gitmo are supposedly affored the full rights as if they were POW’s. Try googling: guantanamo “military necessity” geneva bush congress. All together. It should take you somewhere informative. Remember the \*\*"\*\*s ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/284 "2005-06-18T08:51:55Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Cite on deaths that occurred at Gitmo…? > > Do NOT insult our brave men and women who staff Guantanimo, madam. Who every day perpetuate a war crime and act in direct defiance of the law pronounced by the Supreme Court of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/285 "2005-06-18T08:56:28Z")
> [@Metacom](#): > > This is us acting unambiguously contrary to those “traditional American values.” How can anyone who’s every pledged liberty and justice for all look at a concentration camp full of people being held indefinately without trial and _not_ see an abomination? Beats me, but that’s the US for you. There are innocent people in that camp who were trying to eek out whatever happyness they could in their shitty little war-torn corner of the world before we stuck them in a chain-link cell thousands of miles from their homes and families. Camp X-Ray (and other prisons in Afghanistan, Iraq, and other places) represents a massive failure of this entire country to live up to its values, and I’m not going to retire the phrase “traditional American values” to dampen the dissonance. [/QUOTE] Again, the alternative; a massive _expression_ of “traditional American values.” ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/286 "2005-06-18T09:04:29Z")
> [@The Tooth](#): > > He didn’t appoint a tribunal, he declared them not Prisoners of War by presidential fiat, in violation of the Geneva Conventions. This is the case no matter how many smilies you throw at me. > That’s great. Until such a tribunal with such an outcome occurs, they should be treated as Prisoners of War according to the Geneva Convention. This is apparently not happening, despite your insistence otherwise. The hypothetical results of the tribunals that are their right as per the Convention is not the issue here. Their current treatment as guests of the United States is the issue. > > Despite your patronizing tone, I have read the thread. I read the part of the Convention **Zoe** quoted, the part that states “No physical or mental torture, nor any other form of coercion, may be inflicted on prisoners of war to secure from them information of any kind whatever,” and I read the **Squink** ’s post that states “In a confidential report, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has said it found prisoner abuse”. Correct. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/287 "2005-06-18T09:07:16Z")
Damn dude, nice octo-post. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/288 "2005-06-18T09:09:03Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Then you FIND A WAY. A way that doesn’t involve handing an even bigger propaganda coup to the enemy than Gitmo has become. Maybe you go the American people and say, “I believe in a strong defense of this country. And in a war of ideas, the strongest defense is to _stand by your principles_. The Bush administration, in allowing the abuses at Guantanamo bay to go unchecked, is _harming the war effort_. I oppose this, and so should every American who believes in America’s ideals. And not just because it’s the right thing to do, but because it’s the only way to win this war.” > > Use suitably strong words. Call Bush a traitor if you want. But make damned sure that at the end of the day you do not leave “America == NAZIS” in the minds of the people you are trying to win over. Let them out. Tell their own story, oh fearless servant of truth and faith. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/289 "2005-06-18T09:10:58Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No, **Sam** , no. I was _kidding_! > > (I do so _hate_ trying to explain irony to Canadians!) You’re toying with powers you cannot possibly understand. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/290 "2005-06-18T09:12:13Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > Damn dude, nice octo-post. Dr Who’s on. ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/291 "2005-06-18T09:14:53Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Dr Who’s on. first? I didn’t know he played. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/292 "2005-06-18T13:04:26Z")
> [@Harborwolf](#): > > first? I didn’t know he played. Played what? ---
**Author:** ![Mockingbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c68b51/32.png) [@Mockingbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mockingbird)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/293 "2005-06-18T15:38:04Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > I’ve generally found **Mr Moto]** pretty decent. You obviously have low standards. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/294 "2005-06-18T16:07:20Z")
> [@etf](#): > > Played what? Second base, I assume 😉 My two cents follow; Durbin is a douchebag (that’s personal, Dickie boy). Aside from that, he’s wrong. Gitmo and Auschwitz (or any other Nazi death camp for that matter) are fucking MILES AND MILES apart. Such a chasm may you never be forced to cross. To compare one to the other is to make a mountain from a molehill on one end, and to minimize, and in fact make light of, the death and suffering of 9 million innocent people on the other. It’s offensive hyperbole (and yes, it IS TOO hyperbole) and inflammatory rhetoric that has absolutely no place coming from the mouth of a US senator. Fucking period. Just because the assholes in the media won’t print it if it’s not inflammatory doesn’t mean you have to sink to the level of that same media and come up with something that will be printed. All Dickie did was make himself look like a crackpot. That said. I disagree with how we’ve dealt with these so-called ‘enemy combatants’ I don’t believe that there is a reason to hold them. If they are TRULY enemies of the state and TRULY have designs on the murder and overthrow of the US government. Kill them as they would kill us and move on. If not, then bring them to a US federal prison, lock them down, and treat them as prisoners instead of using these weak kneed loopholes to create a whole class of incarceration. Regarding the actual abuses; I don’t think they WERE abuses. I think what went on at BOTH of those prisons were things that would have gone on anyway, only now, we’ve got people with cameras reporting everything they can get their hands on. War and the ancillary activities thereof (yes, even undeclared war) are an ugly business. Bad things happen to people, at the hands of other people, to further a cause. If I compare a prisoner at Gitmo tied to a floor, pooping himself, and forced to listen to rap music to a Chinese relief worker or a British school teacher or a truck driver from Indiana, frankly, I’m not as appalled about the Gitmo prisoner. When I think that even though the Gitmo prisoner is going through some tough times, he’s still alive. [hijack] Frankly, IMO, we haven’t prosecuted this so-called ‘war’ properly from day one. We’ve gone into a place where religious fanaticism drives men to kill themselves for their faith, and we’ve treated them like they’re an organized military unit, as if they would honor the same battlefield rules that we force ourselves to adhere to. It’s clear that propaganda is an effective weapon in that region of the world, and I think we underused it before the attack. Shock and awe, indeed :rolleyes:. I don’t think we’re vicious enough, I don’t think we’re violent enough, and I don’t think these insurgents are afraid enough of us to stop blowing themselves up. (let them hate, so long as they fear? Precisely) The campaign to win Iraqi hearts and minds can’t work effectively unless you can win their stomachs and their loyalty, which we have not done, and as long as we continue to pussy foot around that sandbox, it’ll be more of the same until we’ve decided that Iraq is too big a mess to clean up, and Halliburton decides there’s no more money to be made there, and we leave. [/hijack] ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/295 "2005-06-18T17:10:24Z")
> [@furt](#): > > I wonder if this might be mentioned in the 2006 elections? > > Strike that, I know the answer. > > What I don’t know: will **Bricker** be buying a car or putting a new wing on the house? It’ll be a week in Puerto Vallerta!! What Durbin might say to fix this… maybe: > [@Senator Durbin](#): > > More than 1700 American soldiers have been killed in Iraq and our country’s standing in the world community has been badly damaged by the prison abuses at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. My statement in the Senate was critical of the policies of this Administration which add to the risk our soldiers face. I will continue to speak out when I disagree with this Administration. I have learned from my statement that historical parallels can be misused and misunderstood. I sincerely regret if what I said caused anyone to misunderstand my true feelings: our soldiers around the world and their families at home deserve our respect, admiration and total support. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/296 "2005-06-18T17:31:42Z")
A very generous statement, on his part. He is willling to accept that he was misunderstood, rather than misrepresented. In no wise does he deny the truth of what he said, nor should he. He might have worded it less generously, and still retained the essential facts: “Sorry you’re so fucking stupid. It makes it tougher to talk to you.” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/297 "2005-06-18T17:48:34Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > “Sorry you’re so fucking stupid. It makes it tougher to talk to you.” Has Frist done the right thing, and apologized for his innocent stupidity? > [@](#): > > referring to the International Committee of the Red Cross official who reportedly compared U.S. soldiers to Nazis. And, regrettably, I am referring to a Senate colleague who, this week, called Guantanamo a ‘‘death camp’’ and drew parallels to Hitler’s Germany, Stalin’s gulags, and Pol Pot’s killing fields. This was a heinous slander against our country, and against the brave men and women who have taken great care to treat the captured terrorists with more respect than they would ever have received in any point in human history. [Congressional Record (pdf)](http://talkleft.com/FristGitmo1.pdf) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/298 "2005-06-18T17:55:13Z")
Sen. Frist knows, better than most of us, that there is more than one way to skin a cat. ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/299 "2005-06-18T22:04:00Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > I’m talking about all the people on the fence. The ones that don’t trust the U.S., but can be convinced that Democracy will work for them. You think this shit helps? frankly I think it helps a fuck of a lot more than an administration who continues to claim the abuses are the results of a few low level ‘bad apples’, while ignoring suggestions of systemic abuse condoned/allowed/approved by higher ups (up to and including the issue of having Gitmo in the first place w/o any oversite by either our own system of laws or international observers). The fact that Gitmo continues to exist, is, IMHO, more of a reason for those fence sitters to continue to mistrust the US, not some Senator proclaiming “Hey, this shit is wrong” at the top of his lungs. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2005, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/300 "2005-06-18T22:33:20Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > A very generous statement, on his part. He is willling to accept that he was misunderstood, rather than misrepresented. In no wise does he deny the truth of what he said, nor should he. He might have worded it less generously, and still retained the essential facts: > > “Sorry you’re so fucking stupid. It makes it tougher to talk to you.” Oh BULLSHIT! He said what he said to grab headlines, no more, no less. He KNOWS that Gitmo is no Auschwitz, reportedly, he’s BEEN to Gitmo. He KNOWS better than to say that, but he did anyway, because it got him the press he was looking for. If I thought it would do any good, I’d challenge him to say what he said to the face of a Holocaust survivor on live TV, if his statements are as ‘true’ as everyone likes to believe they are. Misunderstood my ass. He was understood completely, and he was WRONG to make the comparisons. Period. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=16)