# Godwin for the gander - Senator Durbin shoots his fucking mouth off... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 16, 2005, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593 "2005-06-16T18:55:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/121 "2005-06-17T04:07:43Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Well, now, if they haven’t been declared to be actual honest-to-goodness POW, then the IRC can go pound burdocks, no? They can’t make any determination on thier own? > > And IIRC, in an act of astonishing geo-political prescience, we have exempted ourselves from the vexations of the World Court, so as to circumvent tiresome proceedings. Not to mention putting them where they would not be covered by our constitution. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/122 "2005-06-17T04:21:48Z")
Stop complaining - they get TWO PIECES OF FRUIT! ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/123 "2005-06-17T04:23:24Z")
[From the ICRC website](http://www.icrc.org/Web/Eng/siteeng0.nsf/iwpList74/42BCD4D3BEB459ABC1256E51003EAF49): Excerpt from an article by Gabor Rona, legal advisor to the ICRC in Geneva **"War" Doesn’t Justify Guantanamo** > [@](#): > > The US is proceeding with plans to subject prisoners to military commission trials, citing the Geneva Convention provision that prisoners of war be tried by military courts. **How can it do so while maintaining that no detainees are entitled to PoW status?** That aside, the US risks throwing into the military-trial pot people whose alleged crimes have no connection with armed conflict, as understood in international humanitarian law. Such people can and should face trial, but not by military courts. > > The law of armed conflict strikes a proper balance between the interests of state security and protection of people in times of armed conflict. Where terrorism and the battle against it amount to armed conflict, the law of armed conflict must be applied. But when aspects of the “war on terror” do not fit within the definition of armed conflict, it is in everyone’s interest that domestic and international law is respected. (Bold type added.) Rumsfeld and Powell split on this issue of prisoner status in January of 2002 mainly becausse Rumsfeld wanted to be able to “interrogate” the prisoners beyond the name, rank, serial number afforded by the Geneva Conventions. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/124 "2005-06-17T04:24:10Z")
But not at the same time. Can’t be too careful. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/125 "2005-06-17T04:46:06Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > the IRC can go pound burdocks, no? Not quite: > [@](#): > > In a confidential report, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) has said it found prisoner abuse that amounted to a form of torture at the US military facility in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. [ICRC highlights Guantanamo torture](http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/405EE938-E463-4139-84E4-629CADCD504E.htm) Yeah, Al Jazeera, so shoot me. It was in the regular press too, I just don’t care to fart around looking for a site that’s PC enough for Mr Moto and friends. But the republicans are _working on it_: [US Senators Want to Punish ICRC Over Criticism](http://www.turks.us/article.php?story=20050616071910591) > [@](#): > > Republican Senators believe the US should reconsider funds allocated to the International Committee of the Red Cross in view of its repeated criticism of rights violations by US troops in Guantanamo, Iraq and Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/126 "2005-06-17T05:13:58Z")
Just to make one thing perfectly clear… My “pound burdocks” remark refers to the relative inability of the IRC to _enforce_, not that a dismissive attitude was appropriate. To paraphrase another famous humanitarian, how many divisions do they have? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/127 "2005-06-17T06:15:05Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > My “pound burdocks” remark refers to the relative inability of the IRC to enforce, not that a dismissive attitude was appropriate. Not appropriate, no, but there are some who would paint the ICRC with the same brush as Amnesty International. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/128 "2005-06-17T06:17:39Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > " How can it do so while maintaining that no detainees are entitled to PoW status?" > . I never said that the USA is admitting or granting the prisoners POW _status._ The administration is not doing so. What the USA is doing is giving the prisoners their rights **AS IF** they were POW’s. Not the same thing at all. It is also true, as I said- that the ICRC isn’t entirely happy with the way the USA is treating the prisoners. As I said- the ICRC has made complaints- and the USA has made changes based upon those complaints. However, on the other hand, note that phase- _“the USA has made changes based upon those complaints”_. Squink- early on, the ICRC complained about the cages we were keeping the prisoners, and said (apparently) that they “amounted to a form of torture.” The Adminstration listened and made changes in accordance with the ICRC’s complaints. In my mind, that’s somewhat enlightened. Sure, it would have been better that the ICRC didn’t have to make any complaints in the first place, but… It is also very unlikely we’d be strapping them into the Rack or Iron Maiden while "the Geneva boys’ are watching and taking notes. The ICRC has had full rights of Inspection almost since the start. There’s a lot of real tortures going on in various dictatorships where the ICRC isn’t even allowed in to have a look-see. And, most of such _would_ tell the ICRC to "pound sand’ rather than “make changes based upon those complaints”. Am I proud of what the USA is doing there? No. But it’s not as bad as some would have you believe. If it was, then the USA simply wouldn’t let the ICRC in, nor make any changes at all. I never said we were perfect. In fact, what we \*should \*do is have those hearings, like the ICRC wants us to have. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/129 "2005-06-17T06:30:53Z")
> [@Diogenes the Cynic](#): > > The abuses at Guantanamo Bay include frequent beatings, mysterious deaths, Cite on deaths that occurred at Gitmo…? > [@Lissa](#): > > I assure you sir, there may be times when people are not “nice” to prisoners, there are also times when someone hurts them maliciously. However, I can also assure you that abuse is handled swiftly in U.S. prisons. My husband works at a facility and it is NOT tolerated there. My husband fired an officer for simply putting on gloves as he approached an inmate and saying “do you want to go?”. “Abuse” occurs, but nothing like sleep deprivation, longterm interrogation, permanent isolation, flushing Korans or other abuses we have heard about. If they do, the individuals are FIRED, not protected under the system. > > Do NOT insult the brave men and women who staff our domestic prisons by comparing them to the tyrants of these camps. Do NOT insult our brave men and women who staff Guantanimo, madam. How about suspects being raped with broomsticks in NYC? Hey, I’m not condoning it, but you need to recognize the reality of what happens when you put men in charge of other men at prisons. For every abuse you cite that was “handled swiftly” I can link to twice as many complaints of others that were ignored. I didn’t insult you husband personally so get off you high horse and don’t personalize this like I did. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/130 "2005-06-17T06:32:30Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I didn’t insult you husband personally so get off you high horse and don’t personalize this like I did. Poor wording. Don’t personlize this AS IF I had done so. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/131 "2005-06-17T06:47:05Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Cite on deaths that occurred at Gitmo…? My mistake. I got my prisons mixed up. The unexplained deaths I was thinking of were in [url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A9623-2004Mar19¬Found=true]Afghanistan. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/132 "2005-06-17T06:50:38Z")
[Afghanistan](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&contentId=A9623-2004Mar19¬Found=true). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/133 "2005-06-17T08:17:52Z")
Well, looks like I called it: > [@This Year's Model](#): > > Mr. Moto is going to be so disappointed to come back to this thread and find that his bandwagon has been stripped of not only all four wheels but also the calliope. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Eh, he might just figure we’re a bunch of gutless liberals/Democrats clinging to a flagrant double standard. > [@Mr. Moto](#): > > It’s nice to see that the good citizens of the board, who are so quick to jump on a Republican for overheated rhetoric, are so forgiving when a Democrat exhibits the same fault. But I also said: > [@Kimstu](#): > > I hope he does address the questions raised, though, because I’m genuinely puzzled about the grounds for objecting to Durbin’s remark and comparing it to Santorum’s. So far, nobody’s managed to explain this. In particular, nobody has offered a good reason why we should put Durbin’s comparison of **particular abuses** at Gitmo with those in notorious gulags or concentration camps into the same category as Santorum’s comparison of filibustering Democrats to Nazis. ISTM that when it comes to overstatement and exaggeration, the two remarks are nowhere near comparable. How, exactly, is this “exhibiting the same fault”? As far as I can tell, the only real complaint about Durbin’s remark is that it somehow “went too far” or was “inflammatory” or “grandstanding”. Well, I ask again: what sort of comparison **would** you consider acceptable to express moral outrage over brutal acts of abuse? What notorious historical instances of mistreatment and abuse **are** appropriate to compare with acts like chaining prisoners down in their own shit for long periods in extreme conditions with no food or water? If we can’t mention abuses under the regimes of Hitler, the Soviets (all the Soviet regimes, by the way, or just Stalin’s?), or Pol Pot because they’re too “inflammatory”, then whose abuses **do** you consider sufficiently “politically correct” to use for purposes of rhetorical comparison? **John Mace** basically ducked this question by asking why you have to compare the alleged Gitmo abuses to anything at all, but I hope somebody here has a better answer. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/134 "2005-06-17T10:23:18Z")
> [@newcrasher](#): > > I am. I really have not heard. What are they? Well in that case you’re simply not well enough informed to take part in any discussion. Stop wasting people’s time. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/135 "2005-06-17T11:02:04Z")
Perhaps we should compare Gitmo to [British Boer war era concentration camps.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boer_War#The_concentration_camps) That’s where Hitler got the idea, after all. OK, granted that as far as we know they aren’t maintaining Gitmo in such an unsanitary state as to cause epidemiinc typhoid, measles, or dysentary. But it would be a refreshing change in the rhetoric, wouldn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/136 "2005-06-17T11:16:07Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Proud to be an American, not me. Oh no, not with this shit going on. We SHOULD be ashamed, dammit, because this is not what we are supposed to be. We are supposed to be the good guys. If we’re the good guys, I’d HATE to see what the bad guys look like. But isn’t that the wrong thing to say? Politically speaking, I mean. Doesn’t that give your opposition fuel when the election campaign rolls around? Can’t they quote you and go, “See? They’re not proud to be American. They’re even ashamed to be American.” Isn’t it effortless to spin such quotes into anti-Americanism and hatred of America? I realize it’s an emotional issue, but can’t the root of your sentiment be expressed differently? How about this… As a proud American, I have to say that this sort of trashing of traditional American values by Republicans sickens me. We are the good guys, and what pisses me off is that bad guys are in charge right now. Something like that? ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/137 "2005-06-17T12:09:02Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > How about this… > > As a proud American, I have to say that this sort of trashing of traditional American values by Republicans sickens me. We are the good guys, and what pisses me off is that bad guys are in charge right now. > > Something like that? Because in the Karl Rove world of spin-wars it’s a no win situation. “Democrats accuse the Republican Prty of ‘trashing’ America. This sort of juvenile rhetoric of referring to Republicans as ‘bad’ is counterproductive and only serves to embolden our enemies.” Ew. That gave me the willies a little bit. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/138 "2005-06-17T12:22:28Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Well in that case you’re simply not well enough informed to take part in any discussion. Stop wasting people’s time. I thought this board was about fighting ignorance, not dissing people for asking questions. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/139 "2005-06-17T12:30:01Z")
> [@Jack Batty](#): > > Because in the Karl Rove world of spin-wars it’s a no win situation. > > “Democrats accuse the Republican Prty of ‘trashing’ America. This sort of juvenile rhetoric of referring to Republicans as ‘bad’ is counterproductive and only serves to embolden our enemies.” > > Ew. That gave me the willies a little bit. Good point. Maybe “Congressional leaders”? Congress is very unpopular. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2005, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593/140 "2005-06-17T12:40:14Z")
> [@Giraffe](#): > > This is argument and nitpicking solely for the sake of argument and nitpicking. Unbelievably stupid. You’re right. Now how is it any different from the monkeys shouting “Ooh! Ooh! He called our darling soldiers Nazis. He’s a traitor!”? Hint: It’s not. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwin-for-the-gander-senator-durbin-shoots-his-fucking-mouth-off/308593.md?page=8)