# Godwin's rule: Ayn rand vs. Adolf hitler - exception? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2010, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568 "2010-01-26T21:19:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/61 "2010-01-27T18:01:10Z")
You know who else wrote a book fantasizing about how people that thought like them were going to take over the world? ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/62 "2010-01-27T18:03:29Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > You know who else wrote a book fantasizing about how people that thought like them were going to take over the world? Karl Marx. Or were you thinking of Sun Myung Moon? Say, did Charles Manson write any books, or did he just write songs? ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/63 "2010-01-27T18:04:58Z")
Robert Heinlein, actually. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/64 "2010-01-27T18:17:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Robert Heinlein, actually. 😃 I guess L. Ron Hubbard. **tomndebb** is right, though: if you want to keep this on track, **The Piranha Brothers** , try to detail your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![sleestak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/919ad9/32.png) [@sleestak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sleestak)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/65 "2010-01-27T22:42:13Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Godwin’s “Law” is a joke that’s gotten out of hand. The original point of thee joke was that lazy, immature debaters frequently invoke Hitler comparisons. It happened so often that one could even create a “law” about it, as if it were as reliable as gravity or anything else that’s extremely reliable. The fact that some people treat it as more than a joke is a sad testament to the declining ability to recognize humor in today’s world. > > As for Ayn Rand, her rhetoric was very similar to that of Hitler, as was noted immediately by [Whittaker Chambers](http://www.nationalreview.com/flashback/flashback200501050715.asp) and others. The similarities being (1) both saw themselves as leaders of a small, elite group of human who were responsible for all of humanity’s achievements. (2) Both believed that the vast majority of the human race were worthless scum. (3) Both believed that nearly the entire world was conpsiring against them personally. (4) Both believed that the fate of the entire world depended and rigid adherence of everyone else to their personal commands. (5) Both claimed to have absolute, unchangable standards for judging everything from politics and economics to art and music. (6) Both were willing to use violence to eliminate anyone who didn’t obey them. This, of course, is only a list of similarities in their ideas, and leaves out obvious personal similarities. (It should be unncessary, but apparently is necessary, to answer the objection that Rand didn’t actually kill millions of people while Hitler did. Rand didn’t kill millions of people because she never reached a position where she was able too. The highest position that she ever reached was cult leader, but even there she knew that she’d be hauled off to jail if she killed even one person. As it was, she used her power to the maximum to serve her personal interests and make life miserable for anyone who disobeyed her. Given that, plus her glorification of terrorism and murder in her fiction, it’s reasonable to conclude that she would have killed a lot of people if she had ever become dictator over a large empire.) > > That said, there’s simply no profit, online or elsewhere, in making the comparison. Far better to simply refute Ayn Rand by pointing out the logical flaws in her writing. Dude, did you ever read any Rand? Can you provide a cite for your points 1, 2, 4 and 6. I don’t know about 3 but I have never read any biographies of her so that may be true but I’d still like a cite. I can (sorta) agree on 5 but when a person is arguing for a philosophical position, stating ‘Well, the other guy may be right’ generally isn’t done. As far as violence goes, you are way off. Rand believed that it was not ethical in any way to initiate violence. [Cite](http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/physical_force.html). There are reasons to question Rands beliefs. Making up stuff and attributing it to her isn’t a good way to do it. Slee ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/66 "2010-01-28T00:00:29Z")
Ah, yes, but the _real_ question is what Richard Dawkins thinks about Ayn Rand. ---
**Author:** ![Dissonance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85f322/32.png) [@Dissonance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dissonance)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/67 "2010-01-28T01:27:39Z")
You know who else never read Rand? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/68 "2010-01-28T01:38:44Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > Well, you know who else sacked Delhi? Nadir Shah? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/69 "2010-01-28T04:53:44Z")
> [@](#): > > Ah, yes, but the real question is what Richard Dawkins thinks about Ayn Rand. No, the real question is what Richard Dawson thinks about Ayn Rand. “Survey says…” ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/70 "2010-01-28T05:04:48Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Nadir Shah? Was he a vegetarian? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/71 "2010-01-28T05:07:17Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] “Survey says…” [/QUOTE] …that she is more like Oberst Klink that der fuhrer… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/72 "2010-01-28T05:10:14Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Was he a vegetarian? Probably not, however… _Sitting in Haldiram’s, a vegetarian eatery in old Delhi, you can admire the Sunehri mosque, whose roof Nadir Shah, a king of Persia who had invaded Delhi, climbed in 1739 to make sure that the city’s inhabitants were being massacred as he had ordered._ Coincidence? You be the judge. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2010, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568/73 "2010-02-01T23:00:18Z")
> [@Dissonance](#): > > You know who else never read Rand? Neil Peart? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/godwins-rule-ayn-rand-vs-adolf-hitler-exception/526568.md?page=3)