# Going Clear, Alex Gibney's new documentary about Scientology **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 29, 2015, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259 "2015-03-29T03:10:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/21 "2015-03-30T02:55:55Z")
It was strongly suggested that things revealed in people’s auditing sessions were later used against them and in particular that this was done to Travolta. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/22 "2015-03-30T02:59:05Z")
Well yeah but when are you people going to start a thread about Mormons? And anyway, lots of other religions are much worse. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/23 "2015-03-30T03:38:55Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > It was strongly suggested that things revealed in people’s auditing sessions were later used against them and in particular that this was done to Travolta. It is called a “dead agent” pack. You can see it being used currently by the “church” against the former members in the documentary. Watch it and keep in mind that this is what was included after a whole battalion of lawyers from HBO vetted the film and ensured that every claim would hold up in court. Remember that this entity threw so many lawsuits against the the IRS that they overwhelmed the us government. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/24 "2015-03-30T03:43:54Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Did you watch the documentary? I only caught maybe the last 30 minutes but to me, it seemed the very opposite of being blackmailed. It seemed as if people like Cruise reaped incredible benefits from their involvement in Scientology and were treated as gods by the Church, in exchange for the high-profile exposure that such celebrity membership to the “church” provided. The carrot AND the stick. In the book, Travolta tried to pull away at a couple of points, but was dragged back in, possibly by the contents of his folder. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/25 "2015-03-30T03:53:11Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > The carrot AND the stick. In the book, Travolta tried to pull away at a couple of points, but was dragged back in, possibly by the contents of his folder. I didn’t see the parts about Travolta, only the end with Cruise. Has Tome Cruise ever attempted to leave? Because what I saw showed him reaping lavish benefits with no apparent down side, for his sake, that is. Other than publically being known as a Scientologist. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/26 "2015-03-30T03:57:24Z")
I don’t think they ever really said that Travolta was being blackmailed. It could be an act he’s being forced into, but he does seem very enthusiastic about Scientology; there’s no denying that. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/27 "2015-03-30T04:08:10Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > It is called a “dead agent” pack. You can see it being used currently by the “church” against the former members in the documentary. Watch it and keep in mind that this is what was included after a whole battalion of lawyers from HBO vetted the film and ensured that every claim would hold up in court. Remember that this entity threw so many lawsuits against the the IRS that they overwhelmed the us government. The part about the IRS caving in is puzzling to me. Can the US government really be SLAPPed[sup]\*[/sup] into submission like that? Surely they can defend themselves against that kind of legal harassment. I’ve wondered if there wasn’t something else going on behind the scenes. Blackmail? Bribes? [sup]\*[/sup][Strategic lawsuit against public participation - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation) ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/28 "2015-03-30T04:11:10Z")
I probably won’t see this until Netflix gets it or it goes up on You Tube, but I wondered if Scientologists existed outside Hollywood until I happened to drive by a Scientology temple in a suburb of St. Louis (I used to live in that region). Yep, they do. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/29 "2015-03-30T04:16:49Z")
They have churches all over the world, although the documentary claims that they have a membership of only around 50,000. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/30 "2015-03-30T04:27:46Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > The part about the IRS caving in is puzzling to me. Can the US government really be SLAPPed[sup]\*[/sup] into submission like that? Surely they can defend themselves against that kind of legal harassment. I’ve wondered if there wasn’t something else going on behind the scenes. Blackmail? Bribes? > > [sup]\*[/sup][Strategic lawsuit against public participation - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation) Something on the order of 2500 lawsuits. And Scienos protesting daily at IRS buildings, ads in newspapers… ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/31 "2015-03-30T04:46:11Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Something on the order of 2500 lawsuits. And Scienos protesting daily at IRS buildings, ads in newspapers… Still, the government has a strong interest in not allowing itself to be bullied like that, whatever the short term costs and hassles of standing up to it. This isn’t like constituents clamoring for something. This is a very narrow interest group. Giving in to that kind of harassment sets an awful precedent and encourages similar behavior from other parties. And I don’t see why they should give a shit about ads in newspapers. Hell, I’ll buy a full page ad in the NY Times if it’d get me exempted from federal income tax for the rest of my life. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/32 "2015-03-30T05:37:06Z")
They also had private investigators follow individual IRS officials and dig up anything that might be used for blackmail or that would at least look bad to the public. The thousands of lawsuits were filed by scientology itself AND by individual scientologists, and were filed against the IRS AND individual IRS employees. The lawsuits could never have been consolidated. It was a mess, but every single lawsuit, every single one, was dropped/withdrawn as soon as the IRS caved. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/33 "2015-03-30T12:20:55Z")
I’ve been following the Scientologists for years, and reading the stuff about their antics. I didn’t expect to hear anything new, but some of the stuff at the end was stuff I hadn’t heard before. The fact that this could be made and broadcast at all tells me that their power is wilting. If anyone – HIBO included – had tried this 20 years ago, they would’ve been slapped with multiple lawsuits so fast it’d make your head spin. I bought the book _The Bare-Faced Messiah_, Russell Miller’s bio of Hubbard, as soon as I saw it in the bookstore, because I knew it would be litigated ouit of existence immediately. I was right: > [@](#): > > A suit was brought in the U.S. by New Era Publications in May 1988 that sought to prevent Bare-faced Messiah being distributed, after it had already been published and shipped.[27] Prior to publication, New Era offered to buy out the publication rights to Bare-faced Messiah but was rebuffed. Publisher Henry Holt had distributed 12,500 copies by the time New Era obtained a temporary restraining order to prevent shipment of the remaining copies from the first print run. New Era’s request for an injunction against the distribution of the existing copies was refused. Henry Holt’s president, Bruno Quinson, declared his company’s intention to fight the suit: “This is a case, to say the least, that has serious First Amendment considerations and we are vigorously opposing the Scientologists’ efforts to prevent the publication of this book.”[28] > > … > … > … > In the end, Henry Holt abandoned the litigation, as the ongoing legal costs were becoming unsupportable. The print run of Bare-faced Messiah in the U.S. was ended after only 14,000 copies were printed. Many went to public libraries, but, according to Miller, numerous library copies of the book went missing or had inserts pasted into them by Scientologists.[11] That was just 25 years ago. There never was a US paberback publication of it (although there was in the UK) I also lucked out and found a copy of Paulette Cooper’s 1960s book, _The Scandal of Scientology_, in a used book store. The Scientologistys hads worked that one over, too – as well as the author. They framed her for making bombing threats against the Church. She was only cleared of charges after an FBI raid proved that the Scientologists had set her up. If you want, you can read both books online at **Operation Clambake** at [http://www.xenu.net/](http://www.xenu.net/) . The Scientologists tried multiple times to gget that site shut down, too. Fortunately, it’s based in Norway, and relativerly immune to US prosecution. By all means, visit that site for more than you ever wanted to know about Hubbard and the Scientologists. It’s a real eye-opener. As for the US government “giving in” to the Scientologuists and recognizing them as a religion, I’m afraid it’s true. It’s possible that the IRS just got too tired and fed up with dealing with them (I can’t believe they didn’t know what the vScientologists were like), but it was an ill-chosen decision. I’ve long suspected they had some dirt on key people vto help this along. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/34 "2015-03-30T13:21:16Z")
That’s my suspicion. That they had dirt on key people. It’ll be interesting to see what, if anything, happens after this HBO broadcast. If the allegations about blackmail and beatings are true and can be substantiated I would think that there could be criminal charges. Obviously the former members that were on this documentary are willing to speak out. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/35 "2015-03-30T13:26:58Z")
They have done a truly amazing thing. They transform professional unbiased journalists into opponents. In the book “Going Clear” Wright bent over backwards to be fair and give them every chance to defend themselves, and I’m sure they’ve done their usual tricks to try to ruin his life. I can hardly wait for Louis Theroux’s BBC documentary. As good as “Going Clear” was, he left out some equally astounding stuff. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/36 "2015-03-30T13:29:34Z")
I wasn’t aware of Theroux’s documentary. Any idea when it’s coming out and when it will be available in the US (if ever)? ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/37 "2015-03-30T13:34:41Z")
Unimportant but, what’s with the purple building? Who made that design decision? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/38 "2015-03-30T13:45:52Z")
Great documentary. I read the book last year, it was really interesting. While I was reading, I was texting some friends some parts of the book, because there are some things that are just so crazy. The part that will always make me laugh is that so many countries were not wanting them there, that they took to the seas! With fake Navy outfits! It was funny reading about it, but even funnier seeing the pictures and videos. Also, the rallies were fascinating to see. I think I’d feel a little out of place at a big event for any religion other than my own, but I just got a creepy vibe from the rallies shown in the movie. Maybe it has something to do with them saluting each other, and the big picture of Hubbard, and the pyrotechnics going off. > [@Equipoise](#): > > I’m so excited for this! > Needless to say, Scientology is now whining that their side wasn’t presented in the movie and are trying to smear all the people in the film. Their attack ads on Twitter have merited a couple of funny articles by themselves. > > [The Church of Scientology Is on a Twitter Rampage Against HBO’s Going Clear](http://www.esquire.com/entertainment/tv/news/a33967/church-of-scientologys-hbo-going-clear-twitter-war/) > > [The Church Of Scientology is bad at Twitter](https://thedissolve.com/features/exposition/966-the-church-of-scientology-is-bad-at-twitter/) Those articles are great. And they’re correct, the bullying that might work in real life is just trolling online, and bad trolling at that. They’re not going to win over any sympathizers with their tweets. They also don’t seem to understand the criticism against them. For example, from the second article: > [@](#): > > Consider also the case of Sara Goldberg, “The Home Wrecker,” another former elite Scientologist who was with the Church for 36 years before opting to leave over its policy of “disconnection.” She had raised a son and a daughter within the Church, but faced an excruciating decision when her son became disillusioned with Scientology as a young adult, and the higher-ups asked her to “disconnect” with him. Her refusal was a Sophie’s choice: Goldberg’s daughter ended up disconnecting with her, which also lost her access to her granddaughter. The Church spins it as Goldberg picking her immoral, drug-addicted son over her daughter and her special-needs granddaughter, but even if that were the case, that reinforces the fact that Scientology has a policy of disconnection. Which is why she’s in the movie in the first place! They don’t understand that a policy of disconnection is wrong, and not really found in other non-cult religions. > [@Ambivalid](#): > > I didn’t see the parts about Travolta, only the end with Cruise. Has Tome Cruise ever attempted to leave? Because what I saw showed him reaping lavish benefits with no apparent down side, for his sake, that is. Other than publically being known as a Scientologist. 😃 I don’t know if Cruise has ever fully attempted to leave. It sounds like when he was with Kidman that they were kinda drifting away from Scientology. But then Miscavige freaked out and figured out how to rope him back in, including figuring out how to help distance him from Kidman. It’s hard to know how to feel about Cruise. He hasn’t had the same abuse that the lower-level people have had. And he’s definitely benefited from the Church doing all they can to please him, including benefiting from the results of lower level people doing forced labor. But he’s possibly had more psychological and emotional manipulation than most. The Church could afford to lose some people, but they can’t afford to let him go. I’m not sure that Cruise could leave, or that it would even be possible for him to think that he could. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Lowry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Sam\_Lowry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Lowry)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/39 "2015-03-30T13:49:05Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > That’s my suspicion. That they had dirt on key people. > > It’ll be interesting to see what, if anything, happens after this HBO broadcast. If the allegations about blackmail and beatings are true and can be substantiated I would think that there could be criminal charges. Obviously the former members that were on this documentary are willing to speak out. Yeah, I’m looking forward to see what the fallout will be. I don’t know if any criminal charges will come, but I would think more people will feel safe leaving. And it’s possible Miscavige or someone else at the church will try to do an interview or something to show the other side and it will just make it look even worse. Should be interesting to see what comes. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259/40 "2015-03-30T14:01:56Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > That’s my suspicion. That they had dirt on key people. > > It’ll be interesting to see what, if anything, happens after this HBO broadcast. If the allegations about blackmail and beatings are true and can be substantiated I would think that there could be criminal charges. Obviously the former members that were on this documentary are willing to speak out. In the past, Scientology has vigorously fought such charges off. Look up the Lisa McPherson case for an atrocious example of Scientology bullying officials around. Ms. Mcpherson _died_, and the state’s witnessing pathologists supported the evidence against Scientology – until one of them abruptly changed her mind. No reason was given, but I suspect the Scientologists got something on her to force her change. > **[Death of Lisa McPherson](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_McPherson)** > > Lisa McPherson (February 10, 1959 – December 5, 1995) was an American Scientologist who died in the care of the Church of Scientology in Clearwater, Florida. After a minor traffic accident where McPherson seemed unharmed, she removed her clothes in the street and paramedics transported her to a local hospital. In order to avoid psychiatric intervention, local Scientologists convinced her to leave the hospital and seek care at the nearby Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization (FSO). Th... > **[Lisa McPherson died at the hands of Scientology](http://www.lisamcpherson.org/)** > > Lisa McPherson was a Scientologist held against her will until she died > [@](#): > > On June 12, 2000 the criminal charges were dropped against Scientology because (so the prosecutor claims) the medical examiner could not be counted on to confidently testify, even though the criminal charges were abuse of a disabled person and practicing medicine without a license. You can read much of the Clearwater police department’s evidence and Scientology’s logs of Lisa’s stay, view some of the autopsy photos, and decide for yourself. Then ask why Scientology now makes members sign a waiver specifically against suing Scientology over the Introspection Rundown: > Lisa clause or Lisa McPherson clause: an adhesion clause to insulate one party from all damages, including personal injury or death, from known and unknown conduct of commission or omission of the party so released. An “adhesion clause” is a recognized legal term which means “take it or leave it”, i.e., that the party signing the agreement has no bargaining power and therefore no alternative but to include the clause in the agreement. > > David Miscavige, meanwhile, spoke to the faithful and claimed Lisa’s death was a conspiracy by Eli Lilly, the German government, and others. > > Scientologist OT 8 Dr. David I. Minkoff had his license suspended on August 3, 2001 for one year and was fined for prescribing medicine to Lisa without even seeing her at the request of Lisa’s “caretakers.” > > In 2012 information came to light that Scientology allegedly spent more than $30 million to silence the Lisa McPherson case. Miscavige allegedly tried to talk to the judge in her case outside of court. Church funds were funneled, says an ex member, from expenses to legal defense. Scientology is still obsessing over the death of Lisa. > **[Operation Clambake presents: The Tech Runs its Course - a commentary on the...](https://www.xenu.net/archive/events/lisa_mcpherson/)** > > Lisa McPherson's death followed two and a half weeks of forcible confinement in a room at Scientology's Fort Harrison Hotel in Clearwater, Florida. What really happened? If anything comes of this documentary. it’ll prove that the Scientologists are losing their hold. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-clear-alex-gibneys-new-documentary-about-scientology/716259.md?page=3)