Going Clear, Alex Gibney's new documentary about Scientology

[Nonsuch]

Spinning off malaka’s post, I too was thinking about this question after watching Going Clear. In the end, intelligence — however you choose to define that extremely nebulous concept — has little to do with it. People who get pulled into cults are looking for something their current lives don’t give them: a sense of living for a higher purpose, a firm moral framework in a relativistic world, a community of people who love and accept them (or appear to); and so on. Any cult operative who can figure out what you want and plausibly promise to deliver it has a decent chance of pulling you in, at least for a while. (As this thread attests, many people dip their toes in Scientology only to bail out once they realize they’re basically signing onto a 419 scam.) I think the people most immune to cults aren’t necessarily the smartest or the most skeptical; they’re the most complacent/content with their lives and have no need for whatever the cult is pushing.

[malaka]

@Nonsuch

Spinning off malaka’s post, I too was thinking about this question after watching Going Clear. In the end, intelligence — however you choose to define that extremely nebulous concept — has little to do with it. People who get pulled into cults are looking for something their current lives don’t give them: a sense of living for a higher purpose, a firm moral framework in a relativistic world, a community of people who love and accept them (or appear to); and so on. Any cult operative who can figure out what you want and plausibly promise to deliver it has a decent chance of pulling you in, at least for a while. (As this thread attests, many people dip their toes in Scientology only to bail out once they realize they’re basically signing onto a 419 scam.) I think the people most immune to cults aren’t necessarily the smartest or the most skeptical; they’re the most complacent/content with their lives and have no need for whatever the cult is pushing.

Interesting idea and good points. Sounds reasonable. Back to the thinkin’ table for me…

[nearwildheaven]

I found it on You Tube last night. That link was gone, but this was posted this afternoon.

- YouTube

[eschereal]

[quote=“nearwildheaven, post:223, topic:716259”]

I found it on You Tube last night. That link was gone, but this was posted this afternoon.

[/QUOTE]

that is one of those jump-link thingies to watch it on a movie-hosting site that you have to register for

[Moe]

Here’s one that’s active at this exact moment. Not sure how long it’ll last but I just watched it a second time since last night. Really wonderfully done documentary. I could easily watch another 10 hours of this.

Only tiny criticism - I wish they delved a little bit deeper into the question of whether Miscavage is a true believer. I know they mentioned (was it Rinder?) that he was in a single statement, but I felt that question needed more discussion. Miscavage is really this strange creepy, frightening, incredibly compelling figure. I really wanna understand him better. Of course LRH too.

[Equipoise]

I don’t know if Miscavige is a true believer or if he just likes the money and bullying/beating people, but exes have said that he hasn’t received any auditing for several years. I’ll try to find a cite. In the meantime, to further underscore that he’s one big piece of shitwork, a story came out today in the Los Angeles Times that he’s paid thousands to have his father tailed and round-the-clock surveillance since he (the senior Miscavige) left the cult in 2012. Tony Ortega’s blog has more on the story.

What a scumbag Miscavige is!

Once, while tailing Miscavige on a shopping trip, Powell and his partner watched him grasp his chest and slump over while loading his car. After his arrest, Powell told police he’d thought Miscavige was having a heart attack and might die. He said he phoned his intermediary for instructions.

Two minutes later a man who identified himself as David Miscavige called him back, according to records.
David told him that if it was Ron’s time to die, to let him die and not intervene in any way," the records state, noting that the apparent emergency passed “and nothing further happened.”

Apparently he was just fumbling with his phone and didn’t have a heart attack. Imagine the stories the senior Miscavige could tell. That’s exactly what Dave’s worried about.

Edit to add this pile:

According to Christensen, Powell and son were paid to watch Ron, and it was intense: “In his July 2013 interview with police, Powell said he and a second investigator, his 21-year-old son Daniel, searched the elder Miscavige’s garbage, photographed him wherever he went and tracked him with a GPS device attached to his car and linked to an iPad that read out his location, the documents state. Police found marks on the underside of the car that they concluded were made by the magnetic GPS device, the records say.” Powell and his son were paid $10,000 a week for the detail.

[eschereal]

@Equipoise

I don’t know if Miscavige is a true believer or if he just likes the money and bullying/beating people, but exes have said that he hasn’t received any auditing for several years.

My understanding was that once you break the basic-basic, which I think was equivalent to going clear, you would be able to self-audit for maintenance purposes (run down any new engrams you acquire in the mean time). If Miscavige is, I would imagine, up to OT VIII, I think he would be past the known frontier where he would need tech assistance (I got the impression the NOTs could ultimately be handled solo). As the ClamPope, he gets to decide what he needs. On the other hand, one would expect the ClamPope to be trying to [del]invent[/del] explore uncharted levels, so that the top ranks can go on to OT IX or XLI or whatever has not been set down. I guess he is just too busy struggling to hold the Co$ together amidst all this controversy. And make more money so they can keep up the legal actions (and illegal activities).

[Sitnam]

@Stringbean

Great documentary and really informative.

Ultimately, I simply feel no pity for the suckers who will delude reality for their ill-gotten fool’s gold “happiness.”

It’s their own fault for falling prey to a cult.

What about children? They are biologically engineered to emulate and seek approval from their parents. That’s also why there are still Catholics and Hindus.

[Queen_Tonya]

One thing that I found interesting was the nearly complete lack of mention of female celebrity scientologists. Kirstie Alley, Jenna Elfman, Kelly Preston, Laura Prepon, Greta Van Susteren…for sure none have the name recognition as Tom Cruise but focusing solely on Travolta and Cruise seemed revealing.

[mr.jp]

@Queen_Tonya

One thing that I found interesting was the nearly complete lack of mention of female celebrity scientologists. Kirstie Alley, Jenna Elfman, Kelly Preston, Laura Prepon, Greta Van Susteren…for sure none have the name recognition as Tom Cruise but focusing solely on Travolta and Cruise seemed revealing.

I don’t recognize any of those names. I think maybe Kirstie Alley was the Cheers girl 30 years ago.

Not that I know a lot of celebrities, but I do know who Travolta and Cruise are.

[Sam_Lowry]

@Equipoise

On his blog today Mike Rinder gives a good overview of why Scientology should not be tax extempt.

That was an interesting overview, and included a bit I wasn’t aware of:

The only thing Scientology does with its money is buy buildings. This is partly to try and comply with IRS regulations that prohibit the accumulation of cash by exempt organizations (remember they are supposed to be for the public benefit, not a private bank). **Scientology doesn’t want to “throw money down the toilet” by helping the underprivileged in society — they are considered to be “downstats” and you never “validate a downstat.” **Traditionally a church buying or building new facilities is considered to be an “exempt purpose” as by expanding the facilities they will be able to help more people in the community, provide shelters in time of natural disaster. You think the Super Power building will open its doors to the general public as a shelter if a hurricane is heading towards Clearwater? Not a chance, but the pink christian church across the street will. Scientology is gaming the system — buying massive amounts of real estate when there is NO NEED for it to provide services to their community. These buildings are REAL ESTATE and PR investments pure and simple. This is easy to prove — walk into ANY of the “ideal orgs” and they are dead. Bereft of people. Clearly not being used. Nobody can contemplate that a tax exempt religious organization would just buy property it didn’t need. Nor that it would accumulate billions of dollars.

I bolded the part that really jumps out the most.

[Spoke]

Scientology owns at least a couple of buildings in Atlanta which it seems to have just abandoned to the elements, much to the chagrin of neighbors, who are complaining about the eyesores.

[koeeoaddi]

@Queen_Tonya

One thing that I found interesting was the nearly complete lack of mention of female celebrity scientologists. Kirstie Alley, Jenna Elfman, Kelly Preston, Laura Prepon, Greta Van Susteren…for sure none have the name recognition as Tom Cruise but focusing solely on Travolta and Cruise seemed revealing.

I noticed that, too, Queen Tonya.

Also, I may have missed it, but was there any mention of Shelley Miscavige? I thought her disappearance was the most shocking revelation in the book and wondered why it either wasn’t mentioned in the film, or flew by so fast that it didn’t register.

[Spoke]

@koeeoaddi

I noticed that, too, Queen Tonya.

Also, I may have missed it, but was there any mention of Shelley Miscavige? I thought her disappearance was the most shocking revelation in the book and wondered why it either wasn’t mentioned in the film, or flew by so fast that it didn’t register.

It was mentioned. The police investigated, and claimed to have met with her.

[Equipoise]

Lisa Marie Presley tweeted this out today, certainly a reference to Miscavige having his father surveilled. Which, btw, was on the front page of the Los Angeles frickin’ right-in-your-face-Scientologists Times.

@LisaPresley: Oh goodness nothing excites me more than 2 see people get vindication n redemption when a bully gets busted red handed: ������

I’m so happy she’s out. Her father would be proud.

Edit to add, there’s more now on Ortega’s blog, including audio of the interview with the PI.

[Freddy_the_Pig]

@Equipoise

In the meantime, to further underscore that he’s one big piece of shitwork, a story came out today in the Los Angeles Times that he’s paid thousands to have his father tailed and round-the-clock surveillance since he (the senior Miscavige) left the cult in 2012.

I’m not wild about the passive-voice headline to that story: Miscavige’s father “was spied upon”. The average person skimming the headlines, and not reading the story, may assume that it was government surveillance of those poor persecuted Scientologists.

[gaffa]

@Freddy_the_Pig

I’m not wild about the passive-voice headline to that story: Miscavige’s father “was spied upon”. The average person skimming the headlines, and not reading the story, may assume that it was government surveillance of those poor persecuted Scientologists.

…when, in reality, the CoS actually managed to persecute the US government (their revenue arm, at least.)

[Rick_Kitchen]

@Queen_Tonya

One thing that I found interesting was the nearly complete lack of mention of female celebrity scientologists. Kirstie Alley, Jenna Elfman, Kelly Preston, Laura Prepon, Greta Van Susteren…for sure none have the name recognition as Tom Cruise but focusing solely on Travolta and Cruise seemed revealing.

Juliette Lewis.
Anne Archer (who is the mother of Tommy Davis, who used to be the COS’s spokesperson)
Karen Black
Nancy Cartwright
Elisabeth Moss
Priscilla Presley

Peaches Geldof is out, but now she’s Thelema.

[Equipoise]

David Miscavige’s neice Jenna Miscavige Hill’s reaction. She knew about this but kept it quiet at the request of her family. Now that the story’s out she’s speaking out, even appearing on Inside Edition. Someone said a longer interview with her will be on tomorrow.

The police reports. I know nothing about Private Investigators, but isn’t all that firepower, including a homemade silencer, a bit much? Seven license plates? A Molotov cocktail? A stun gun? A whip? The PI father and son team were instructed to follow Ron Sr. anywhere in the world. The cult hired PIs to watch the PIs! I can’t wait to hear the backstory about all this. After all, it happened 2 years ago but only came to light now. How’d that happen? Since it came from the PI’s police report and not “disgruntled apostates” it certainly shores up everyone else’s stories about being under surveillance. And hooray for the West Allis, Wisconson Police Department!

[Rick_Kitchen]

The CoS is running ads to counter the bad publicity, regurgitating all of the lies about Elron:

L. Ron Hubbard - Scientology Religion Founder (HD)