# Going to Quebec - What Should I Not Miss? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 1, 2018, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276 "2018-10-01T18:45:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/21 "2018-10-04T15:05:20Z")
And note that while Mary Queen of the World, St Joseph’s, st Patrick’s and Notre-Dame are all basilicas, only Mary Queen of the World is a cathedral. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/22 "2018-10-04T17:08:26Z")
> [@senoy](#): > > To continue with this point, you can’t say ‘the big ass church’ about Montreal. Montreal has FOUR basilicas. (Mary Queen of the World, St. Patrick’s, Notre Dame and St. Joseph’s) and they are all absolutely gorgeous. (I personally like the interior of St. Patrick’s the best. I like St. Joseph’s exterior, but to each their own.) That doesn’t include all of the little Catholic churches and the Protestant quasi-cathedrals. If you like sacred architecture (or really any architecture) Quebec has an embarrassment of riches. I’m actually worried that with declining congregations we’re going to see a lot of these places destroyed over time. Beaupre has already lost its nunnery which is beautiful in its own right and I think that that is going to be the norm to watch these buildings just slowly decay and fade away, so enjoy it while you can. The one I was thinking of was St Joseph’s, which I visited in 1970 when I was nine years old, and which has the largest dome in the world after St. Peter’s in Rome. And they had Brother Andre, who did miracles. Miracles are cool. But I’d be happy to visit any of them. ---
**Author:** ![senoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@senoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/senoy)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2018, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/23 "2018-10-04T18:14:23Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > “Protestant quasi-cathedrals” - no “quasi” about it. Anglican (and Orthodox too, although not Protestant, obviously) cathedrals are just as much cathedrals as Catholic ones - the seat of a bishop. That’s true. When I wrote that in my mind, I was thinking of St. James United on Rue Ste. Catherine which is another absolutely gorgeous church on the outside, especially now that they destroyed that building that used to be in front of it. The interior doesn’t compare to the basilicas, but it has some nice stained glass. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/24 "2018-10-05T00:02:14Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > They could even be young ladies of easy virtue (« les filles du Roi »), provided they were Catholic. As far as I can tell, the _filles du Roi_ were for the most part orphans who lived in state-run orphanages. That’s why they were “daughters of the King”: they were wards of the state, and the state, famously, was the King. > [@](#): > > That in turn meant that almost all québécois supported the church, including financially (and the British kept the system of state-enforced tithes, so the Church had steady income.) > > The Church thus took on a very conservative role, both culturally, to protect the faithful _habitants_ from the perfidious anglais, and theologically. The Church in Quebec in the 19th century was strongly ultramontaine - “more Catholic than the Pope.” That especially happened after the Rebellions of 1837-1838. In the early 19th century, there was a very strong current of liberalism in Canadian society; in fact, the _Patriote_ (and earlier _Canadien_) Party that agitated for more democracy for Canada, sometimes advocating independence from Britain, a republican form of government, or annexation to the United States, was seen as the “French” party. There were however anglophone _Patriotes_ as well, notably the Nelson brothers. This is also the time when many Canadian symbols (the maple leaf, the beaver, and I think the colour red as well) started being used in politics. After the Rebellions, they were largely replaced in Lower Canada/Quebec by _Ancien Régime_ French symbols, such as the _fleur de lys_. > [@](#): > > One famous political slogan in the 19th century was « Le ciel est bleu, l’enfer est rouge. » (“Heaven [the sky] is blue, Hell is red.”). The Conservatives in Quebec were « les Bleus », the Liberals were «les Rouges ». I think that slogan is more strongly associated with the 20th century, maybe the 1940s or so under Maurice Duplessis’s government. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/25 "2018-10-05T00:42:56Z")
Oh, I agree that there were strong liberal elements in Quebec in the mid-nineteenth century. Witness the Rouges, and the Dorion brothers, for instance. However, they were always in the minority in electoral politics, with Cartier and the Bleus tending to win. There were also the Instituts canadiens in Montreal and Quebec, hotbeds of liberalism for young free-thinking professionals. But note that the Institut in Montreal got crushed by Archbishop Bourget in the Guibord affair, while the Institut in Quebec compromised its liberalism in response to attacks by the Church. The ultramontaines were firmly in control from the 1870s onwards, has been my impression. With respect to the slogan, I associate it with Laurier and Israël Tarte and their efforts to establish a strong Liberal party in Quebec, and the opposition they provoked from the Church, but I could be wrong. I’ll do some poking around. But two questions: did the Union nationale use blue as their colour? I’ve always thought of that slogan as a response to the names of the two 19th century parties. Second, in your view, were Papineau and the Patriotes primarily liberals who took arms against an undemocratic government, or nationalists who opposed a British-imperialist government? I’ve always considered them the latter (and I appreciate it’s not an “either - or” situation), but I’d be interested in your views. ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/26 "2018-10-05T00:43:24Z")
At your Burlington stop, I highly recommend the Vermont Teddy Bear Factory tour in nearby Shelburne. The tour guides are (if they’ve kept similar to when I’d taken the tour, more than once) very funny. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/27 "2018-10-05T00:43:31Z")
Man, I LOVE reading about Canadian history. Tell me a story about John Diefenbaker, the jowliest politician until Richard Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/28 "2018-10-05T00:52:02Z")
…or Lester Pearson, the WWI flying ace turned PM. I’ve had one small, delicious taste from the brilliant Canadian cartoonist, Kate Beaton. [http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=294](http://www.harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=294) Diefenbaker enjoys a couple of cameos. ---
**Author:** ![EmilyG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/emilyg/32/364_2.png) [@EmilyG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EmilyG)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/29 "2018-10-05T01:39:31Z")
I’d suggest not driving much in Montreal, as we have a lot of traffic and bad roads. The area around Place des Arts is pretty neat. Lots to do there. And Mount Royal is beautiful in the autumn. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/30 "2018-10-05T06:15:03Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Oh, I agree that there were strong liberal elements in Quebec in the mid-nineteenth century. Witness the Rouges, and the Dorion brothers, for instance. However, they were always in the minority in electoral politics, with Cartier and the Bleus tending to win. Cartier wasn’t quite exactly a conservative, he was a _Liberal_-Conservative. As a young man he used to be a _Patriote_, but then joined the establishment side and John A. Macdonald. > [@](#): > > The ultramontaines were firmly in control from the 1870s onwards, has been my impression. This seems likely. It seems to be the government’s reaction to the Rebellions (the Act of Union for example) that caused a rise in conservatism. > [@](#): > > With respect to the slogan, I associate it with Laurier and Israël Tarte and their efforts to establish a strong Liberal party in Quebec, and the opposition they provoked from the Church, but I could be wrong. I’ll do some poking around. > > But two questions: did the Union nationale use blue as their colour? I’ve always thought of that slogan as a response to the names of the two 19th century parties. Blue always remained associated with the Conservative party (and its successors) in Quebec. I don’t know if Duplessis formally used this colour ([this](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Unionnationalelogo.png) is the only Union nationale logo I’m familiar with, but I think it’s from the 60s or 70s), but I’m almost certain his party was still informally referred to as _les bleus_. > [@](#): > > Second, in your view, were Papineau and the Patriotes primarily liberals who took arms against an undemocratic government, or nationalists who opposed a British-imperialist government? I’ve always considered them the latter (and I appreciate it’s not an “either - or” situation), but I’d be interested in your views. Hmmm, good question. And yes, it’s definitely not an either-or situation. Canada becoming more democratic would mean more power in the hands of the people, who were mainly _Canadiens_ at the time, so I’d say both go hand in hand. I know Papineau was at times an annexationist, which suggests that he did admire the United States’ liberalism and was inspired by it. We could check some Patriote writings (such as the [92 resolutions](https://biblio.republiquelibre.org/Les_92_r%C3%A9solutions_de_l'Assembl%C3%A9e_l%C3%A9gislative_du_Bas-Canada), but I see they’re really long) to try to find what their philosophical underpinnings were. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/31 "2018-10-05T12:12:08Z")
> [@Ukulele\_Ike](#): > > Man, I LOVE reading about Canadian history. Tell me a story about John Diefenbaker, the jowliest politician until Richard Nixon. Diefenbaker was an odd man. In his old age, he spent a lot of time meticulously planning his own state funeral, right down to the seating plan at the cathedral for all the notable attendees. He took considerable delight in pairing off individuals who disliked each other, sitting them side by side. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/32 "2018-10-05T17:10:49Z")
> [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](#): > > Cartier wasn’t quite exactly a conservative, he was a _Liberal_-Conservative. As a young man he used to be a _Patriote_, but then joined the establishment side and John A. Macdonald. So was Macdonald (Liberal-Conservative, not _Patriote_, I mean. ;)), The label “Liberal-Conservative” grew out of the struggle for responsible government, where both liberal and conservative supporters of responsible government worked together for that goal under Lafointaine and Baldwin, as opposed to the die-hard anti-democratic conservatives who supported the Château clique and the Family Compact. After responsible government was achieved, the label continued to be used, but it increasingly meant conservative. Cartier and Macdonald were both lawyers for business interests, particularly railroads. > [@](#): > > Blue always remained associated with the Conservative party (and its successors) in Quebec. I don’t know if Duplessis formally used this colour ([this](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ae/Unionnationalelogo.png) is the only Union nationale logo I’m familiar with, but I think it’s from the 60s or 70s), but I’m almost certain his party was still informally referred to as _les bleus_. Did not know that the colour still stuck to the UN. Interesting - thanks. > [@](#): > > We could check some Patriote writings (such as the [92 resolutions](https://biblio.republiquelibre.org/Les_92_r%C3%A9solutions_de_l'Assembl%C3%A9e_l%C3%A9gislative_du_Bas-Canada), but I see they’re really long) to try to find what their philosophical underpinnings were. Couldn’t get the link to work. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/33 "2018-10-05T18:59:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > …In particular, no Huguenots (also, no Bruces. That went without saying.)… Was their name not Bruce, then? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/34 "2018-10-05T19:39:26Z")
No, all the Norman Bruces went to Scotland, where they had considerable success. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/35 "2018-10-05T20:01:05Z")
Did any of them teach philosophy there, or emigrate to Australia? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 5, 2018, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/36 "2018-10-05T20:39:40Z")
Hard to say. Wattles don’t grow well in Scotland, which may have encouraged emigration for those of that temperament. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/37 "2018-10-06T00:53:30Z")
I’ve poked around a bit on the “ciel est bleu” slogan. According to the article on the “Parti bleu” in the Canadian Encyclopaedia, it does date to the period of the 1860s to 1870s, but the article doesn’t provide a specific citation: > **[Parti bleu | The Canadian Encyclopedia](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/parti-bleu)** > > Favouring an attitude known as la survivance and opposing the anticlerical and radical Parti rouge, the Parti bleu received the support of the Roman Catholic cl... There’s also the entry in French Wikipedia for Pierre-Alexis Tremblay, who was the Liberal candidate opposing Langevin in the Charlevoix riding. He successfully challenged Langevin’s election under the federal Elections Act provision barring “undue influence” in an election. Tremblay argued that the activities of the clergy during the election infringed this statutory provision. The article says that the slogan dates to that election, but does not provide a cite: > **[Pierre-Alexis Tremblay](https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pierre-Alexis_Tremblay)** > > Pierre-Alexis Tremblay, né le 27 décembre 1827 à La Malbaie et mort le 4 janvier 1879 à Québec, est un arpenteur, un homme politique et un journaliste québécois. Il a été député indépendant, puis libéral des circonscriptions de Chicoutimi-Saguenay et Charlevoix. > Natif de La Malbaie, il étudie au Petit séminaire de Québec, où il lie des amitiés avec Antoine Racine et Pierre-Télesphore Sax. Devenu arpenteur en 1853, il travaille sur la rivière Péribonka et le chemin du lac Saint-Jean. > Il se pré... This article on the Charlevoix election hints that the slogan dates from that period, but does not expressly say so. It ends, however, by noting that the slogan continued to be used by the Union nationale, finally ending with the Quiet Revolution: [http://encyclobec.ca/region\_projet.php?projetid=255](http://encyclobec.ca/region_projet.php?projetid=255) I took a skim through the Supreme Court decision but couldn’t find a mention of the slogan. > **[Brassard et al. v. Langevin - SCC Cases](https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/13669/index.do)** > > This page contains a form to search the Supreme Court of Canada case information database. You can search by the SCC 5-digit case number, by name or word in the style of cause, or by file number from the appeal court. ---
**Author:** ![Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hypnagogic_jerk/32/4252_2.png) [@Hypnagogic\_Jerk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypnagogic_Jerk)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2018, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/38 "2018-10-06T02:59:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > I’ve poked around a bit on the “ciel est bleu” slogan. > > According to the article on the “Parti bleu” in the Canadian Encyclopaedia, it does date to the period of the 1860s to 1870s, but the article doesn’t provide a specific citation: > > [Parti bleu | The Canadian Encyclopedia](https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/parti-bleu) Oh, that’s interesting, thank you. > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Couldn’t get the link to work. Strange, because it works for me without any problems. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/39 "2018-10-16T16:01:35Z")
Thanks to all who participated in this thread, both for your suggestions, and the discursus on Canadian political history. Quebec elected a new government the week before we arrived, and the campaign posters were sufficiently ubiquitous to spur me to go to Wikipedia and look up the CAQ. We just got back late Sunday night. The trip was a success. We drove up to Montreal from western Massachusetts and spent two days in an Airbnb off rue Ste-Catherine, in the Village. Did the tourist thing on a hop-on/hop-off bus tour, and learned that riding an open-top bus in Montreal in October calls for slightly warmer clothing than we packed. We visited the Place d’ Armes and Vieux Montreal, and gawked at Notre Dame. Also the Oratorio of St. Joseph, where I displayed unwonted maturity in resisting the temptation to loudly sniff and say “Smells like something died in here” before the preserved heart of St. Brother Andre. Montreal was nice, but I wouldn’t necessarily go back; it seemed like a generic big city. Which is not in any way a knock – I love big Northern cities – but nothing I’d have to go 900 miles to enjoy. Quebec City, on the other hand, we definitely plan to visit again. In spite of truly terrible weather – rainy and cool on the first day, grey and cold on the second, overcast, rainy and cold on the last, with the addition of 15 mph winds that blew umbrellas inside-out on the Terrasse Dufferin; we were all miserably wet and cold most of the day – we thoroughly enjoyed wandering around the old city. Never ate at Aux Anciens Canadiens, but we did eat at a wonderful little café called Chez Temporal, on rue Coulliard, where I had a bison meat pie and a wonderfully warming carrot soup. Definitely recommend it. (In Montreal, we did make sure to try smoked meat, and poutine. Both were yummy.) We were again in an Airbnb on rue Rene Levesque, right around the corner from rue Cartier, which was a fun street of restaurants and shops; we were within walking distance of the city walls, and very near the Plains of Abraham, where I was able to get in some great runs. (I was slightly puzzled by the display of German field artillery, captured by Canadian forces in World War I; most nations would, I think, display them with the barrels pointed over the park, rather than directly at the Quebec Armory. Seems to take Canadian self-deprecation to an extreme level. But I digress.) Burlington was nice, as well - it was the only time we saw the sun during the whole trip. And Lake Champlain was gorgeous. So, thanks again for all the suggestions and comments. And thanks to Quebec and it people, who were friendly and welcoming. (My wife, who majored in French, enjoyed that the Quebecois would speak to her in French; when she lived in Alsace, people would always respond to her in English, even if she initiated the conversation in French.) ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2018, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276/40 "2018-10-16T17:52:39Z")
Thanks for the update, **SMV**. Glad you had a good trip! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/going-to-quebec-what-should-i-not-miss/822276.md?page=3)