# Gold braid around National flags. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 23, 2013, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010 "2013-12-23T11:55:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 11:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/1 "2013-12-23T11:55:29Z")
Hello good people, A quick question if I may, what’s the significance of gold thread/braid around the edges of national and regimental flags? As a second quickie is the Danish flag really the oldest national flag? My Danish friend was a little into her seasonal cups and very insistent about this! Peter ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/2 "2013-12-23T12:36:37Z")
Per [Flag Code FAQ part 1: general questions](http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm) > [@](#): > > Gold fringe can be found on ceremonial flags used indoors and for outdoor ceremonies. The fringe is considered completely within the guidelines of proper flag etiquette. There is nothing in the Flag Code about the fringe being for federal government flags only. The Internet contains many sites that claim that the fringe indicates martial law or that the Constitution does not apply in that area. These are entirely unfounded (usually citing Executive Order 10834 and inventing text that is not part of the order) and should be dismissed as urban legends. Others ascribe meanings of spiritual authority. Gold fringes on flags goes back long before the United States. Flags in ancient India had gold fringe, as did those in France, England, and throughout Europe. The gold fringe is a purely decorative addition to some ceremonial flags and has no legal significance. And as the Dannebrog is traditionally associated with Constantine’s vision of the Cross, it can be considered the oldest currently used national flag. ---
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/3 "2013-12-23T13:09:24Z")
Thanks Dr., I’m chary of ‘traditionally associated’ assurances, any slightly more current cites please? As to the first question is the braiding mentioned in law anywhere or is it just taken as ceremonial? Peter ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/4 "2013-12-23T13:13:40Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > Thanks Dr., > I’m chary of ‘traditionally associated’ assurances, any slightly more current cites please? I think that what is being pointed out here is that there is nothing official about the fringe on the flag-it’s only significance _is_ that it is decorative. ---
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/5 "2013-12-23T13:18:44Z")
Chary/Wary about the origin of the Danish flag, P ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/6 "2013-12-23T13:24:23Z")
The _official_ regulations concerning flag fringe [(warning PDF) from the government:](http://www.senate.gov/reference/resources/pdf/RL30243.pdf) > [@U.S. Gov](#): > > **Ornaments on Flag Staffs, Fringes on Flag** > The Flag Code is silent as to ornaments (finials) for flagstaffs. We know of no law or regulation which restricts the use of a finial on the staff. The eagle finial is used not only by the President, the Vice-President, and many other federal agencies, but also by many civilian organizations and private citizens. The selection of the type finial used is a matter of preference of the individual or organization. The placing of a fringe on the flag is optional with the person or organization, and no Act of Congress or Executive Order either requires or prohibits the practice. Fringe is used on indoor flags only, as fringe on flags used outdoors would deteriorate rapidly. The fringe on a flag > is considered an “honorable enrichment only” and its official use by the Army dates from 1895. A 1925 Attorney General’s Opinion states: > The fringe does not appear to be regarded as an integral part of the flag, and its presence cannot be said to constitute an unauthorized addition to the design prescribed by statute. An external > fringe is to be distinguished from letters, words, or emblematic designs printed or superimposed upon the body of the flag itself. Under the law, such additions might be open to objection as unauthorized; but the same is not necessarily true of the fringe. edited to add: the footnote for this paragraph was “34 Op. Atty. Gen. 483” ---
**Author:** ![pdunderhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4bbf92/32.png) [@pdunderhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pdunderhill)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/7 "2013-12-23T13:27:19Z")
So a fringe is just a fringe non? Still curious about other Countries as I’m sure the decoration precedes the US. P ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/8 "2013-12-23T13:30:41Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > So a fringe is just a fringe non? > Still curious about other Countries as I’m sure the decoration precedes the US. > P Are you asking if having a fringe on _any_ flag has _ever_ had any political significance in the past? ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/9 "2013-12-23T13:33:12Z")
Yes, the fringe is just a fringe and has no significance other than looking pretty. At least in the US, as you note, this may be different somewhere else. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/10 "2013-12-23T13:36:20Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > So a fringe is just a fringe non? Unless you are a [conspiracy theorist:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_conspiracy_arguments#Conspiracy_arguments.2C_in_general) > [@](#): > > Claims made in support of the income tax conspiracy include: The gold fringe around the American flag, as displayed in many federal courts, designates them as Admiralty courts, which cannot hear other kinds of cases, or signal that the court is operating under martial law.[4] No court has ever upheld this argument, as neither the presence (or absence) of a flag (or of any other standard or element of decor), nor the fringe on a flag (which has no heraldic or vexillological significance), has any bearing whatsoever on the jurisdiction of a court. Just to be clear, the idea that the gold fringe has some legal meaning is total nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Telperion](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telperion/32/509_2.png) [@Telperion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperion)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/11 "2013-12-23T13:41:45Z")
> [@pdunderhill](#): > > So a fringe is just a fringe non? > Still curious about other Countries as I’m sure the decoration precedes the US. > P The [Raven banner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner) used by the Vikings is traditionally depicted with a fringe. ---
**Author:** ![Sailboat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sailboat/32/461_2.png) [@Sailboat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sailboat)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/12 "2013-12-23T13:54:13Z")
> [@Telperion](#): > > The [Raven banner](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raven_banner) used by the Vikings is traditionally depicted with a fringe. Certainly seeing a Raven Banner coming at you is “traditionally associated” with trouble. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/13 "2013-12-23T14:00:24Z")
As for the Danish flag, all pieces of record that reference it are from after it was already in existence. According to vexillology site [Flags of the World](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/dk.html), quoting the Danish Encyclopaedia, the earliest Danish reference is from 1478 and there’s a reference from the late 1300s Dutch Armorial as the banner of King Waldemar ([see also here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Denmark#Earliest_undisputed_link)). ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/14 "2013-12-23T14:25:47Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > As for the Danish flag, **all pieces of record that reference it are from after it was already in existence**. According to vexillology site [Flags of the World](http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/dk.html), quoting the Danish Encyclopaedia, the earliest Danish reference is from 1478 and there’s a reference from the late 1300s Dutch Armorial as the banner of King Waldemar ([see also here](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Denmark#Earliest_undisputed_link)). Well, it would have been a good trick to reference it any time before it was in existence, eh? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/15 "2013-12-23T15:30:14Z")
The strikingly recognizable Japanese flag - which the Japanese refer to as the “sun mark flag” or “circle of the sun” - has been the country’s official flag only since 1870 but it actually dates back so far that a precise point of origin is hard to pin down. It COULD be older than Denmark’s flag, but it’s hard to say, and it’s also the case that it probably was not a flag that represented the entire nation of Japan. [QUOTE=DrFidelius] Well, it would have been a good trick to reference it any time before it was in existence, eh? [/QUOTE] I think what JR was getting at was that the legend of the origins of the Danish flag is, well, just a legend, and refers back to a time when there isn’t really any evidence it was actually Denmark’s flag. The flag of England is at least as old, and maybe older, than Denmark’s. Switzerland’s flag goes back a long way, too. The things is that it’s going to be very hard to positively answer the question just because prior to the 1700s there really wasn’t any such thing as a “national flag” being used on a consistent basis. European countries flew a variety of royal and house banners; the English flag (the Cross of St. George, the red cross on a white field) was flown and worn at least as far back as the 1300s but I don’t know you could say that anyone would have considered it “the flag of England” that far back, at least any more than they would have considered the Royal Banner the flag of England. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/16 "2013-12-23T15:40:34Z")
The concept of a national flag is itself a fairly recent one. The Cross of St. George has been around as a symbol of England since as early as 1265, but did not become the _de jure_ flag of England until 1607, when King James decided that the flag of the union would be a combination of the crosses of St. George and St. Andrew. Even then it was only intended to serve as a naval pennon. ---
**Author:** ![Ranger\_Jeff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranger_jeff/32/2065_2.png) [@Ranger\_Jeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranger_Jeff)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/17 "2013-12-23T17:22:42Z")
I think the major difference between US flags with a fringe and without one if they’re both made of equal quality cloth/dyes/etc. is that the ones with fringes are more expensive at the flag store. The difference to me is just a significant as the difference between a dress shirt with french cuffs and regular ones. This could be a good topic for “_Fun With Flags_” though. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/18 "2013-12-23T17:32:19Z")
Does the fringe/admiralty flag woo make anyone else hum “Lunatic Fringe”? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/19 "2013-12-24T02:33:59Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Unless you are a [conspiracy theorist](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_conspiracy_arguments#Conspiracy_arguments.2C_in_general)… “Some people believe with great fervor preposterous things that just happen to coincide with their self-interest.” _Coleman v. CIR_ (7th Cir. 1986), 791 F.2d 68, 69. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2013, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010/20 "2013-12-24T05:52:23Z")
The flag of Israel, in it’s current form, dates back only to 1948 officially, but the Star Of David symbol is ancient – presumably dating back to the days of King David. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-braid-around-national-flags/677010.md?page=2)