# Gold? What gold? We ain't got no stinkin gold! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 15, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175 "2014-04-15T13:49:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/1 "2014-04-15T13:49:55Z")
OK, the Spanish and Portuguese took oodles of gold from South America back in the 16th century. Where did all that gold go? Why aren’t Spain and Portugal the wealthiest countries in the world? ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/2 "2014-04-15T13:55:26Z")
Cecil Adams: [What happened to all the gold Spain got from the New World?](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/611/what-happened-to-all-the-gold-spain-got-from-the-new-world) ---
**Author:** ![Ethilrist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ethilrist/32/4604_2.png) [@Ethilrist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ethilrist)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/3 "2014-04-15T13:57:58Z")
Tequila. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/4 "2014-04-15T13:58:04Z")
Because gold isn’t wealth. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/5 "2014-04-15T14:49:45Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Because gold isn’t wealth. 'scuse me? Sure looks like it to me! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/6 "2014-04-15T14:58:26Z")
Gold is not wealth, but that debate is another thread. Essentially, Melchior, they spent it all. ---
**Author:** ![sweeteviljesus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/898d66/32.png) [@sweeteviljesus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sweeteviljesus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/7 "2014-04-15T15:11:38Z")
Briefly, money isn’t wealth. Wealth is the value of all the goods and services you have (and the value fluctuates constantly). If you increase the supply of money (in this case, the supply of gold), you get inflation. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Kobayashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4af34b/32.png) [@Mr.Kobayashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Kobayashi)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/8 "2014-04-15T15:40:38Z")
Francisco de Quevedo wrote that gold ‘Well-born in the Indies, and welcomed by the world, he comes to Spain to die, although Genoa buries him’. As well causing the inflation of silver, they also answered the eternal question ‘War - what is it good for?’ Well, blowing all your cash in Dutch Rebellions and against the Ottomans, France and in Italy. Eventually Habsburg Spanish monarchs took out massive loans with high interest rates to pay for the ongoing wars, eventually defaulting on them. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/9 "2014-04-15T15:51:25Z")
Add to that some basic math and you discover that **all the gold** produced in the 1500s would only be a blip in _last year’s_ Spanish National budget, even assuming an average price of $1000/oz for the gold. Over 500 years, that amount of gold is meaningless when talking about national economies. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/10 "2014-04-15T15:52:55Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Add to that some basic math and you discover that **all the gold** produced in the 1500s would only be a blip in _last year’s_ Spanish National budget, even assuming an average price of $1000/oz for the gold. > > Over 500 years, that amount of gold is meaningless when talking about national economies. I was under the impression that there was a lot of gold, well worth going to get. [http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~gel115/115CH8.html](http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~gel115/115CH8.html) ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/11 "2014-04-15T16:01:13Z")
You might find this page helpful: [http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/129shipwrecks/129facts1.htm](http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/twhp/wwwlps/lessons/129shipwrecks/129facts1.htm) > [@](#): > > In the 1530s, Spain conquered the Inca Empire in present day Peru and added huge amounts of gold and silver to its coffers. Not surprisingly, France expanded efforts to seize Spanish treasure by licensing privateers to operate far into the Atlantic Ocean instead of concentrating on waters near Spain. In 1537, a year when French privateers captured nine treasure ships, Spain sent several royal warships all the way to the Caribbean to escort the treasure ships home. This convoy of merchant ships and warships is considered the first true treasure fleet. This system of merchant ships sailing in groups protected by warships helped the Spanish bring home large amounts of treasure. In 1545 the Spanish found the richest silver deposits yet discovered in the Americas on a mountainside in Peru. This find ensured the growth of the Spanish empire and made silver the most important precious metal coming from the Americas. There was a lot of gold and silver, and it was worth going and getting it. But the Spanish and Portugese didn’t just sit on the gold and silver once it arrived in Europe. They spent it. That’s why they don’t have it anymore. It’s probably quite well distributed throughout the world’s gold and silver supply by now. ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/12 "2014-04-15T16:09:20Z")
This page also discusses the precious metals and their fate: [http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~gel115/115CH8.html](http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~gel115/115CH8.html) It has helpful charts on how much the Spanish mined from South America by decade. It looks like 1591-1600 was the most productive decade, bringing 19.5 tons of gold and 2,708 tons of silver from the American possessions to Spain. To put this into perspective, the world produced 2,770 tons of gold in 2013 ([List of countries by gold production - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gold_production)) - remember that the population and the economy were much smaller then - Spain’s population in 1600 was about 8 or 9 million people, and the population of Spain in 2013 was 47 million people. ---
**Author:** ![GreasyJack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/df705f/32.png) [@GreasyJack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreasyJack)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/13 "2014-04-15T16:09:58Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I was under the impression that there was a lot of gold, well worth going to get. > > [http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~gel115/115CH8.html](http://mygeologypage.ucdavis.edu/cowen/~gel115/115CH8.html) It was an _incredible_ amount compared to all the gold that had been mined and was in circulation in Europe at the time (hence the crippling inflation when they spent it), but it’s not all that significant compared to the amount of gold that’s been mined since nor, as **silenus** pointed out, would the value of it today be all that significant compared to the size of a modern economy or governmental budget. ---
**Author:** ![Melchior](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Melchior](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melchior)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/14 "2014-04-15T16:12:09Z")
> [@GreasyJack](#): > > It was an _incredible_ amount compared to all the gold that had been mined and was in circulation in Europe at the time (hence the crippling inflation when they spent it), but it’s not all that significant compared to the amount of gold that’s been mined since nor, as **silenus** pointed out, would the value of it today be all that significant compared to the size of a modern economy or governmental budget. I guess here is the answer: “The New World money, therefore, was not used to finance Spanish trade, industry, or public works. It was poured away on military campaigns that were in the end unsuccessful, though they brought Spain to the dominant military position in Western Europe for a century. The money went abroad: the Spanish used the money from the New World to export misery and national wealth, instead of investing in industry and trade. In the end the money was wasted. The Spanish could not even invade England despite the size of the Armada; they failed to crush the Dutch in a long, bitter, brutal war, and they did no better in the various Hapsburg adventures against the French. The bullion was shipped out as fast as it arrived, and the Spanish kings became efficient international distributors of misery rather than generators of wealth for their own people. The legacy of Philip II, who died in 1598, was a nation with a large income, no money, and a massive national debt.” ---
**Author:** ![SGT42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9e5f3/32.png) [@SGT42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SGT42)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/15 "2014-04-15T16:23:14Z")
There was so much gold in Portugal that the Portugese stopped producing everithing, they imported from food to manufactured goods from England. Brazilian gold went almost all to England. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/16 "2014-04-15T16:34:53Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Add to that some basic math and you discover that **all the gold** produced in the 1500s would only be a blip in _last year’s_ Spanish National budget, even assuming an average price of $1000/oz for the gold. > > Over 500 years, that amount of gold is meaningless when talking about national economies. Yeah but with Obama as President it will be the only accepted currency when we have Obamageddon. What? We’re in year 5 and we’re not reduced to living on our farms raised from hybrid-free seeds? And that gold is completely impractical as a currency during a breakdown of society as it has little (none for most people) inherent value? \ Actually, it was spent quite a bit on war. Think of how much money was spent to build the Armada. I’m curious if the gold stayed in the country like with local soldiers and shipwrights and builders or if the monarchy sent most of it directly out of the country . ---
**Author:** ![nevadaexile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb8c5e/32.png) [@nevadaexile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevadaexile)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/17 "2014-04-15T16:34:54Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > OK, the Spanish and Portuguese took oodles of gold from South America back in the 16th century. Where did all that gold go? Why aren’t Spain and Portugal the wealthiest countries in the world? The 16th century was a long time ago and both Spain and Portugal suffered numerous internal struggles as well as bloody colonial wars in the New World,Asia and Africa. They squandered the wealth of their colonies and since they had (and have) limited natural resources of their own, they returned to the poverty-stricken Southern European nations which they were. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/18 "2014-04-15T16:40:45Z")
> [@sweeteviljesus](#): > > Briefly, money isn’t wealth. Wealth is the value of all the goods and services you have (and the value fluctuates constantly). If you increase the supply of money (in this case, the supply of gold), you get inflation. But nothing has any “value”, unless parties agree that X and Y can be exchanged for each other. That agreed-upon portable medium of exchange (Z) then fits into the formula X = Z = Y, which gives the medium the same value. If Gold is Z, then it has the same value as X and Y. If you have something you think is of value, would you exchange it for Dollars or Gold? Of course you would You do every day, because dollars/gold have, in your mind, a convertible value that enables you to access things of “value” that you need but don’t have. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Yeah but with Obama as President it will be the only accepted currency when we have Obamageddon. > . Godwin’s Second Law : Replace “Hitler” with “Obama” ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/19 "2014-04-15T16:48:45Z")
> [@Melchior](#): > > I guess here is the answer: > > “The New World money, therefore, was not used to finance Spanish trade, industry, or public works. It was poured away on military campaigns that were in the end unsuccessful, though they brought Spain to the dominant military position in Western Europe for a century. The money went abroad: the Spanish used the money from the New World to export misery and national wealth, instead of investing in industry and trade. In the end the money was wasted. The Spanish could not even invade England despite the size of the Armada; they failed to crush the Dutch in a long, bitter, brutal war, and they did no better in the various Hapsburg adventures against the French. The bullion was shipped out as fast as it arrived, and the Spanish kings became efficient international distributors of misery rather than generators of wealth for their own people. The legacy of Philip II, who died in 1598, was a nation with a large income, no money, and a massive national debt.” The same fate that most colonizing/warlike countries have met throughout history. Portugal, Spain, Czarist Russia, Belgium, etc., eventually went broke on foreign wars and occupation, if they weren’t defeated by a superior military force first. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2014, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175/20 "2014-04-15T17:03:09Z")
[nitpick] steenkin’ [/nitpick] [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gold-what-gold-we-aint-got-no-stinkin-gold/686175.md?page=2)