# Goldfish Bowls are cruel to goldfish? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 25, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892 "2005-10-25T21:47:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/1 "2005-10-25T21:47:25Z")
I wish I had a clever title to put in that subject line - but as I have the wit of a goldfish myself, it isn‘t happening. Basically [this](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L25201939.htm) story says that the City of Rome has banned goldfish bowls because “_they are cruel_” and “_make the fish go blind_”. Am not familiar enough with this subject to be able to process this information. So: \*\*Are goldfish bowls cruel to goldfish? Why? Do they make goldfish go blind? Why?\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Poysyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Poysyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Poysyn)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/2 "2005-10-25T22:01:48Z")
I have heard the bowls are bad for Goldfish because goldfish are dirty - very large waste-producers - fish and with no filter they are essentially swimming in their own waste. But that is only what I heard and what I was trained while working at a pet store, they may have just been trying to sell more aquariums though. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Anne\_Neville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Anne\_Neville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anne_Neville)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/3 "2005-10-25T22:36:20Z")
I’ve heard that they are less than optimal because a goldfish bowl has a smaller air surface than a tank of equivalent volume, so the fish get less dissolved oxygen in the water. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/4 "2005-10-25T23:58:41Z")
The only problem I see would be the ammonia build-up in the bowl which is caused by the decomposition of fish waste. You can, however, purchase a chemical to counteract the accumulation. As for the article itself, I think of it as utter nonsense. Cruel? Goldfish have a memory of 2 seconds. Besides, THEY’RE GOLDFISH. Walking down the fish aisles in any pet store you’ll see dead goldfish that were sucked into the filters of those 10-gallon, “high class” fish tanks. Perhaps placing them in those tanks are cruel, too. Either way, the City of Rome needs to get a hobby. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2005, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/5 "2005-10-25T23:58:52Z")
Both good answers (above), but there’s more. All life started in the water. The cellular organism, being a single cell, was always in direct contact with the surrounding water, and drew the raw materials it need directly from that life giving fluid. As multicellular organisms evolved, they had to develop ways to get those nutrients to “interior” cells–cells that were no longer in direct contact with seawater. Thus the circulatory system, which circulates blood–essentially, seawater synthesized by the organism. “We” left the water millions of years ago, so our bodies had to develop closed systems, cut off from the seawater. We carry our closed system of seawater around with us. Fish never left the water, so they never needed to evolve such a physically isolated circulatory system. Mostly through their gill membranes, fish still maintain a very close osmotic relationship with the water they live in. If the water chemistry changes, a fish’s blood chemistry will change too, in order to maintain an osmotic balance with the water it lives in. This means, of course, that fish are even more sensitive to the chemicals that surround them than we are. Along comes evolution and finds a way to take advantage of this to manage fish population density. As a fish population grows, naturally the concentration of the fishes’ metabolic byproducts–i.e., bodily waste–increases in the surrounding water. As these chemicals (Ammonia =\> nitrates =\> nitrites) become more concentrated in the water–and therefore, remembering the osmotic gill membranes–in a fish’s blood–the fish’s metabolism is affected. In response to these signals of overpopulation, a fish’s growth may slow, or stop entirely. And to vastly oversimplify, the fish begins to die. A change in water chemistry can return things to normal, but for all intents and purposes the fish is now on the downslope of its life cycle as opposed to the upside. In a bowl, without adequate water changes to diliute the waste chemicals, a fish’s growth will be stunted, and it won’t live a normal life span. People may triumphantly claim that their goldfish lived 5 or 6 years in a bowl, but a goldfish in its native environment–cold, clean freshwater–it may live as long as 40 years. So 5 or 6 years is more like infanticide than success. So it’s not so much the physical limitations of the bowl. It’s the chemical issues. I’ve had goldfish live well in bowls if I feed them no more than frequently than every second or third day, and change the water frequently. (I’ve never had a goldfish for 40 years, but I’ve given a few away after keeping them healthy for 4 or 5.) And the article says “round bowls caused fish to go blind.” This makes some kind of sense if you realize that fish eyes protrude somewhat from their head, and a goldfish may spend a lot of time sliding along the inner surface of the bowl. This is less likely to happen in a container that isn’t globular, for obvious geometrical reasons. I’ve always tried to talk people out of putting goldfish in bowls, but I’m not sure I’d go so far as to criminalize it. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/6 "2005-10-26T00:00:59Z")
> [@Hi](#): > > The only problem I see would be the ammonia build-up in the bowl which is caused by the decomposition of fish waste. You can, however, purchase a chemical to counteract the accumulation. . . . Actually, ammonia is a byproduct of a fish’s respiratory function; ammonia is given off by the gills. And the chemical solution should be looked at as temporary; frequent dilution with fresh water is the only long term remedy. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/7 "2005-10-26T00:09:15Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > Actually, ammonia is a byproduct of a fish’s respiratory function; ammonia is given off by the gills. And the chemical solution should be looked at as temporary; frequent dilution with fresh water is the only long term remedy. Ya know, that’s what I thought originally. I had once used a bowl and inquired about the cloudiness of the water after a few days. I seemed to remember hearing that the ammonia is secreted through the gills, but a quick search on Google led me in the wrong direction. I was looking [here](http://www.goldfishinfo.com/ammonia.htm): > [@](#): > > Ammonia in an aquarium is caused by the decomposition of fish waste, decaying food, and dead fish that have not been promptly removed. I read as far as “fish waste,” and that led to my undoing. Anyways, after a few more days with the cloudy fish bowl, I decided to just buy a larger tank with a filter. I also bought one of those algae-eating sucker fish to help with the cleanliness. ---
**Author:** ![SoulSearching](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@SoulSearching](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SoulSearching)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/8 "2005-10-26T00:34:05Z")
> [@Hi](#): > > Goldfish have a memory of 2 seconds. Do fish really have that limited of a memory? ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/9 "2005-10-26T00:42:18Z")
> [@Hi](#): > > . . . I also bought one of those algae-eating sucker fish to help with the cleanliness. They produce waste too. ---
**Author:** ![Hi\_Neighbor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hi_neighbor/32/494_2.png) [@Hi\_Neighbor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hi_Neighbor)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/10 "2005-10-26T00:42:41Z")
> [@SoulSearching](#): > > Do fish really have that limited of a memory? I was slightly exaggerating, but here are some details from a [study](http://nootropics.com/intelligence/smartfish.html) at Plymouth University: > [@](#): > > In his experiment, goldfish were placed in a bowl in which they were fed only when they pressed a lever. The fish rapidly learnt that pressing the lever produced a food reward. > > Once they had been trained in this way, the researchers set up the lever to work for just one hour a day. The fish soon became wise to this, and learnt to press the lever at the same time every day to feed. “The fish worked out that if they hit the lever around that time, they would get some food,” Dr Gee said. “Their activity around the lever increased enormously just before the set hour when their food was dispensed. And from "[answerbag](http://www.answerbag.com/q_view.php/8105) ": > [@](#): > > It is often said that goldfish have a memory of only a few seconds, but this is not entirely true. Goldfish have what could be called a selective memory, that is to say they have some kind of concience of what has happened on previous occasions, but are not sure what it was. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/11 "2005-10-26T00:45:11Z")
> [@SoulSearching](#): > > Do fish really have that limited of a memory? Fish are capable of being conditioned, and reacting involuntarily to learned stimuli, but I don’t think that’s exactly the same thing as memory. I don’t think fish have what you’d consider “memory” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ba8739/32.png) [@Backwater\_Under\_Duck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Backwater_Under_Duck)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/12 "2005-10-26T00:45:28Z")
> [@SoulSearching](#): > > Do fish really have that limited of a memory? I had a goldfish for a while. It thrived in a 5 gallon tank. So much so that I had to find a home for it after grew as big a small trout. Since I was the only one to feed it, Goldie would respond to my presence in the room by looking at me and waving her tail wildly. In fact, she could pick me out of a room full of people, ignoring everyone else, and reacting only to me. She remembered something. ---
**Author:** ![La\_Llorona](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@La\_Llorona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/La_Llorona)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/13 "2005-10-26T01:45:34Z")
**lissener** ’s post is very good. (Welcome back, **lissener**!) One of the primary dangers with keeping goldfish in bowls is not only the poisonous buildup of nitrates/nitrates/ammonia, but the gradual stunting of growth, which almost certainly lessens the quantity of life and is thought to be detrimental to the fish’s quality of life as well. Goldfish have been known to get over a foot long (Google Bruce the Giant Oranda sometime for your fishy pleasure); most people in fishkeeping circles will recommend ten to twenty gallons per goldfish, more if you can manage it, and ideally, a pond life for the fish. **Hi, Neighbor!** , by “algae-eating sucker fish”, do you mean a plecostomus? Plecos are not a good fish for many home aquariums: they get extremely large (a foot or more!). Fishkeeping people will generally recommend fifty gallons or more per pleco. Also keep in mind that if you want to sell the fish or trade it in when it gets huge, most pet shops don’t like to take freakin’ enormous plecos (or enormous fish of any kind–try selling your oscars when they get too big for that 50-gal). Plus, plecos have been known to be tempted by the tasty, tasty slime coat of fish, goldfish in particular; they are not generally recommended to be kept with goldfish for this reason. You might want to consider trading it to a pet shop while it’s still relatively small. Oh, and you should certainly use a chemical that states it removes chlorines, chloramines, and ammonia _before_ you put the fish in the water; however, keep in mind that these chemicals are intended to make tap water safe for the fish to swim in and are no substitute for regular water changes. ---
**Author:** ![Odinoneeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/97f17d/32.png) [@Odinoneeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odinoneeye)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/14 "2005-10-26T03:44:50Z")
Goldfish are dirty fish. They don’t have stomachs. The food passes right through them and they absorb what nutrients they can on the way, the rest passes right out. Also, pleco’s aren’t the only type of algae eating fish. There are three basic types sold in stores. 1. Plecos, which have the problem that was noted, they get huge. 2. Chinese algae eaters which tend to stop eating algae as they get older and can be agressive (this is probably what you would get if you buy an “algae eater”) 3. Ottocinclus. These are the best bet for small tanks. You might need a couple if your tank is 20 or 30 gallons. Also, snails are good for eating algae, but you gotta make sure they can’t climb out of the tank. Anyway, I’m a avid aquarist, but I don’t like goldfish, so I’ve never kept one in a bowl or a tank. The best fish for a small bowl is probably a betta or siamese fighting fish. They come to the surface to breath so the oxygen isn’t a problem. You still need to change the water often. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/15 "2005-10-26T04:00:09Z")
They are cruel in that goldfish produce more waste than tropicals and will most likely die in those circustances. I tried keeping some fry from a rain barrel alive in a ten gallon over the Winter. They required daily water changes. They are not cruel in that fish are the only animal that the Rabbis say don’t require ritual slaughter because they do not feel pain. Anyway, if you want the goldfish to live, get them a large aquarium. They can grow to be forty years old. Most don’t. My latest problem is a hawk taking them from the pool. Everybody’s trying to make a living. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/16 "2005-10-26T04:23:31Z")
> [@Odinoneeye](#): > > Goldfish are dirty fish. They don’t have stomachs. The food passes right through them and they absorb what nutrients they can on the way, the rest passes right out. Of course they have stomachs. Their digestive system is not significantly different from your average fish. People just tend to feed them way too much. > [@Odinoneeye](#): > > Also, pleco’s aren’t the only type of algae eating fish. There are three basic types sold in stores. > > 1. Plecos, which have the problem that was noted, they get huge. Except the small species. > [@Odinoneeye](#): > > 1. Chinese algae eaters which tend to stop eating algae as they get older and can be agressive (this is probably what you would get if you buy an “algae eater”) Perfectly correct. I shun Chinese Algae Eaters. > [@Odinoneeye](#): > > 1. Ottocinclus. These are the best bet for small tanks. You might need a couple if your tank is 20 or 30 gallons. They’re also schooling fish. I but them by the half dozen. > [@Odinoneeye](#): > > Also, snails are good for eating algae, but you gotta make sure they can’t climb out of the tank. Some snails will devastate live plants; so willl most plecos. Ottos, not quite so much. Flying Foxes are algae grazers, as are mollies. But mollies like salt in the water. MOst fish like some fish in the water, but some don’t. And mollies only thrive with a LOT of salt; they’ll live and breed in full marine. > [@Odinoneeye](#): > > Anyway, I’m a avid aquarist, but I don’t like goldfish, so I’ve never kept one in a bowl or a tank. > > The best fish for a small bowl is probably a betta or siamese fighting fish. They come to the surface to breath so the oxygen isn’t a problem. You still need to change the water often. _Betta splendens_ (pet peeve: it’s pronounced “betta,” not “beta”), or Siamese fighing fish, don’t require filtration or oxygenation, but they do require warmth. ---
**Author:** ![lissener](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lissener/32/6139_2.png) [@lissener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lissener)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/17 "2005-10-26T04:24:43Z")
Oh and– > [@La Llorona](#): > > . . . Welcome back, **lissener**!) . . . –thanks, LL. ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/goldfish-bowls-are-cruel-to-goldfish/327892/18 "2005-10-26T12:23:40Z")
> [@lissener](#): > > MOst fish like some fish in the water, but some don’t. And mollies only thrive with a LOT of salt; they’ll live and breed in full marine. Did you mean “Most fish like some _salt_ in the water?” I didn’t know that. How much is some?