# Gollum slipped and fell in the fires of the Sammath Naur because... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942 "2011-01-25T18:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/41 "2011-01-26T02:00:56Z")
Negligence on the part of Sauron the landlord in not putting in no slip flooring in a dangerous work area. I’m bringing suit on behalf of Smeagol’s next of kin. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/42 "2011-01-26T02:05:53Z")
To be honest, I think the threat of litigation is the least of Sauron’s troubles at this point. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/43 "2011-01-26T02:19:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > To be honest, I think the threat of litigation is the least of Sauron’s troubles at this point. I can just see Melkor and Sauron in the outer darkness now. “So, Lieutenant, how’d it go?” "I don’t wanna talk about it. I was this close . . . _This close!_ Oh, and Gollum fell, not pushed, not jumped. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/44 "2011-01-26T02:25:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Yes, I know it said “seemed.” But as Kimstu makes plain, there’s nothing particularly troubling about supernatural stuff happening in the story. The actual sound waves emanated from Frodo’s vocal cords, but the Ring was speaking through Frodo (or Frodo through the Ring, and I’m not sure that’s a significant distinction) at the time. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/45 "2011-01-26T02:53:47Z")
It’s all about addiction. The Ring was addictive to the wearers; no-one, not even Frodo, was immune. Gollum bit off Frodo’s finger and killed himself to possess the ring. Addiction kills. (I’m no DARE crusader, but I do have my addiction - nicotine; Gollum is the hero of the junkies’ nightmare.) ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/46 "2011-01-26T02:58:16Z")
> [@Mr.Excellent](#): > > By a similar token, I think that a prudent Gollum could have had many, many years with “my Precioussssss” if he had avoided his damned stupid happy dance. I’d say wanting the Ring in the first place really isn’t prudent. And Sam’s hostility made Gollum’s rebound triumph at gaining the Ring that much greater, to the point of not realizing the dangers of where he was standing. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Q](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/898d66/32.png) [@Johnny\_Q](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Q)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/47 "2011-01-26T03:10:29Z")
The truth is, Gollum slipped on a puddle of the blood that came out of Frodo’s stump when Gollum bit his finger off. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/48 "2011-01-26T04:29:08Z")
Well, I don’t remember there being any giant ants around so I think that safely rules out the first poll option. ---
**Author:** ![SCSimmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e495f1/32.png) [@SCSimmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCSimmons)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/49 "2011-01-26T05:23:15Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > I’m not sure how conscious the Ring was, but it certainly wasn’t sapient in the sense that humans were. I don’t think Sauron ever wrote any explicit “do not allow yourself to be destroyed” instructions into its magical programming, for he never foresaw that anyone but him would wear it, and he never believed anyone could have the will to try to destroy it. [Or maybe he had an even more simplistic thought process regarding that particular issue.](http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=594) [QUOTE=Sauron] Curses! It’s tough to do fine detail work with magma. I dropped my first attempt into the lava, and it melted — a whole morning’s work ruined. My creation will be indestructible, except here in the lava of the Cracks of Doom. It’s only a -1 disad because after all, what are the chances someone would march all the way through Mordor to throw the thing into the volcano? Zero, that’s what. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/50 "2011-01-26T16:40:25Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > Yes, that’s true. However, the idea that the Ring’s power caused him to slip is still the most satisfying to me, in terms of what I perceive to be Tolkien’s fundamental concept, which I would express thus: Eru foreordained that all would end well, but this would be achieved only through individuals making choices that were\* virtuous, selfless, and heroic \*(according to their abilities). All the main characters, at one point or another, faced temptation and either resisted it or repented with virtuous action – even Gollum showed a trace of this along the way. The result was that the ring was brought to the Crack of Doom, with Gollum present. At that point Frodo made the choice to keep the Ring (not a virtuous choice, but any other choice was far beyond his ability), and Gollum was there to play his role – take the Ring, be blinded by its power, and fall. (bolding mine) Sam’s treatment of Gollum on the Stair was not what I would call virtuous. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/51 "2011-01-26T17:50:06Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > A theory completely discredited by the Barrow Wight Commission. :rolleyes: _slow clap_ ---
**Author:** ![furryman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/furryman/32/99_2.png) [@furryman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furryman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/52 "2011-01-26T17:50:07Z")
Sam pushed him in and he and Frodo agreed to tell everyone that he fell in. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/53 "2011-01-26T19:44:10Z")
I think everyone is off base here. The Ring _wanted_ to be destroyed; it was repulsed at how it had been used as an instrument of evil for so long. The problem it had was that all of the mortals that it could possibly try to use to destroy itself were so weak and flawed that it was nearly impossible to stop them from being too corrupted to carry it out. It took a hell of a lot of doing to juggle itself back and forth among the hobbits until it could work its way back into the Crack of Doom and get to a point where Gollum could be wound up into enough of a frenzy to lose his footing and fall. Look at the history. The Ring had been trying to get away from Sauron for _centuries_. What are the odds that Elendil’s sword-stroke would land precisely as needed to cut off the Ring? Have any of you ever fought with a broadsword? Can you imagine trying to poke your sword in and neatly cut off your opponent’s index finger while doing so? Not possible without the Ring exerting its influence. It tried to lie quietly in the riverbed. It tried to disappear into the roots of a mountain. It just wanted to be left alone. But no, that greedy bumbler, Baggins, stumbles along and hoovers up the Ring like a chocolate doughnut, and from then on the Third Age is fucked. It even tried to stay with Bombadil. Every time I read that scene, I picture the Ring as drawn by Warner Brothers animators, holding up a sign saying, “Leave Me Here!” and being ignored. Same thing for the Council of the Wise. Someone mentions Bombadil, and I picture the Ring bobbing up and down, nodding excitedly. Then Elrond says, “No, that’s too easy. Instead, let’s give it to a band of Irish midgets to walk all the way across the world, through Mordor, and up to the volcano without succumbing to its influence. And to protect them, we’ll send Boromir along.”\* And the Ring goes :smack:. - “Master Elrond, what about asking the Eagles to – ?” “I said MIDGETS! WALKING! End of discussion!” ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/54 "2011-01-26T19:53:03Z")
In the story didn’t they cut the ring from his finger after they put him down? It was the movie where the ring was cut from Sauron’s hand by a lucky stroke. Also…I don’t remember the ring actively trying to get away from Sauron, but instead seemingly to be actively trying to get back. (I realize your post was probably tongue in cheek btw ;)) -XT ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/55 "2011-01-26T20:02:20Z")
I voted for the first option, but I think the beauty in any story that involves destiny, prophecy, and human(hobbit) struggle, and what makes the tale truly magical, is that it is _not_ clear what the primary “cause” of the outcome is. Saying “God did it” turns it into a very mechanical tale of the divine choosing its moment to intervene to get what it wants. Makes all the action leading up to it seem pretty silly, too (why didn’t God do something sooner that would lead to a more positive outcome?). Saying, on the other hand, that it’s all just a happy accident ignores the power and magic inherent in the story. Heroes can take on 10s or even 100s of enemies, the enemy has the power to corrupt the will of men, and some events are destined to happen, as long as the heroes and villains behave as their types require. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/56 "2011-01-26T20:11:42Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I think everyone is off base here. The Ring _wanted_ to be destroyed; it was repulsed at how it had been used as an instrument of evil for so long. The problem it had was that all of the mortals that it could possibly try to use to destroy itself were so weak and flawed that it was nearly impossible to stop them from being too corrupted to carry it out. It took a hell of a lot of doing to juggle itself back and forth among the hobbits until it could work its way back into the Crack of Doom and get to a point where Gollum could be wound up into enough of a frenzy to lose his footing and fall. > > Look at the history. The Ring had been trying to get away from Sauron for _centuries_. What are the odds that Elendil’s sword-stroke would land precisely as needed to cut off the Ring? We’re talking about Tolkien’s book, not Jackson’s movie. As I recall the movie scene (which I haven’t seen in ages), there is no ambiguity about Gollum’s fall; he stumbles because he’s grappling with Frodo. And even if we were talking about the movies, it was Isildur’s stroke that would have cut off the wrong, not his father’s. (I don’t think his father is even named in the movie.) Anyway, the Ring has no desire to be destroyed. It is a projection of Sauron’s conscisousness, his malice, his desire to rule. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/57 "2011-01-26T20:26:03Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > It is a projection of Sauron’s conscisousness, his malice, his desire to rule. His deep-seated self-hatred. “Melkor never really loved me!” ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/58 "2011-01-26T22:43:36Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > His deep-seated self-hatred. “Melkor never really loved me!” He’s still got a thing for Melian, you know. [Sauron’s Blog](http://www.sauronsblog.com/?p=369) ---
**Author:** ![tr0psn4j](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@tr0psn4j](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tr0psn4j)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/59 "2011-01-26T23:13:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Simple clumsiness born of excitement Granted, the excitement was about a supernatural ring. ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/60 "2011-01-26T23:20:50Z")
I always took it as being very straightforward. Frodo, the current master of the ring, cursed Gollum. This is one of the things that ‘only truly strong entities could do’ that would take time to learn, how to use the power of the ring to increase your own personal power and your domination over others. Frodo had worn and carried the ring for a long time at that point. Even if he just got lucky with saying the right thing/pressing the right button he found out how to do this bit. Bit of a highjack, I always thought it would end with Sam tackling Frodo into the lava to ‘save’ his beloved master from the final corruption of the ring. Surprised he didn’t even think of it. Or if he did, Tolkien never mentioned it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942.md?page=4)