# Gollum slipped and fell in the fires of the Sammath Naur because... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 25, 2011, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942 "2011-01-25T18:14:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/61 "2011-01-26T23:27:46Z")
> [@Satchmo](#): > > I always took it as being very straightforward. Frodo, the current master of the ring, cursed Gollum. This is one of the things that ‘only truly strong entities could do’ that would take time to learn, how to use the power of the ring to increase your own personal power and your domination over others. Frodo had worn and carried the ring for a long time at that point. Even if he just got lucky with saying the right thing/pressing the right button he found out how to do this bit. > > Bit of a highjack, I always thought it would end with Sam tackling Frodo into the lava to ‘save’ his beloved master from the final corruption of the ring. Surprised he didn’t even think of it. Or if he did, Tolkien never mentioned it. I don’t think Sam was emotionally capable of such a thing. Aragorn, Legolas, or Gimli might have been. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/62 "2011-01-26T23:35:03Z")
Yea, but Sam would have killed them if they had tried. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2011, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/63 "2011-01-26T23:38:50Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Yea, but Sam would have killed them if they had tried. > > Enjoy, > Steven I’m going to pretend that I don’t know what you’re talking about. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/64 "2011-01-27T04:44:49Z")
> [@](#): > > I always took it as being very straightforward. Frodo, the current master of the ring, cursed Gollum. This is one of the things that ‘only truly strong entities could do’ that would take time to learn, how to use the power of the ring to increase your own personal power and your domination over others. Frodo had worn and carried the ring for a long time at that point. Even if he just got lucky with saying the right thing/pressing the right button he found out how to do this bit. Frodo was still small potatoes, as far as that goes: Had Aragorn, say, claimed the Ring, he would have already been more capable with it the moment he put it on than Frodo ever was. Certainly, Frodo was learning, but more significant, I think, is that first, the Ring itself was growing more powerful as it drew nearer to the Fire, and second, that Gollum was already fully under the thrall of the Ring. Giving commands to Gollum through the Ring wasn’t all that big a deal; a truly powerful wielder would have been able to turn ordinary folks into something like Gollum. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/65 "2011-01-27T19:20:37Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Sam’s treatment of Gollum on the Stair was not what I would call virtuous. No argument there. If all the “good guys” had made nothing but virtuous choices at every opportunity, the book would have been irritating. The idea that people (at least the hobbits, who are the people we are supposed to identify with the most) can be heroic even though flawed is essential. (I know, you know all this already.) ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2011, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/66 "2011-01-27T20:40:09Z")
> [@cjepson](#): > > No argument there. If all the “good guys” had made nothing but virtuous choices at every opportunity, the book would have been irritating. The idea that people (at least the hobbits, who are the people we are supposed to identify with the most) can be heroic even though flawed is essential. (I know, you know all this already.) I mention Sam’s action on the Stair because a good argument can be made that his uncharitable and unfair actions to Gollum at that moment were the proximate cause of Gollum’s betray. A good argument can be made (and has been, by persons other than me) that, absent said betrayal, the Quest ultimately fails; and since many/most of us are inclined to see the hand of Eru in all this, we are forced to conclude that the All-Father intended (providentially) for both Sam and Gollum to act sinfully in order for Middle-earth to be saved. Some might find this notion discomfiting. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/67 "2011-01-28T01:12:01Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > I think everyone is off base here. The Ring _wanted_ to be destroyed; it was repulsed at how it had been used as an instrument of evil for so long. … I will the first in line to buy _The Ring Done Gone_ when you get published. ---
**Author:** ![salinqmind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ec8ea/32.png) [@salinqmind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/salinqmind)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/68 "2011-01-28T03:11:06Z")
(“The Return of the Shadow”??? Where have _I_ been?) ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/69 "2011-01-28T17:26:25Z")
This is a topic near and dear to my heart, because it seemed to me a perfect example of how evil is inherently self-destructive. The Ring enjoys betraying any Bearer other than Sauron, and possibly Sauron as well. After all, “and into this ring he poured all his cruelty, his malice and his will to dominate all life.” The Ring is the apotheosis of Malice. And one of the ways it works its malice is to execute the will of its bearer (or someone who swears by it) in a way least desirable to its swearer: a Monkey’s Paw kind of wish fulfillment. So when Gollum swore to obey the master of the Precious or be cast into the Fire, the Ring gleefully caused it to happen when Gollum betrayed the master (Frodo). This had the unhappy (for the Ring) side-effect of destroying the Ring, but the Ring, in its malice, isn’t too good about looking ahead; it takes the quickest, dirtiest route to Spite it can find. Oops. Except that that’s not how the Professor saw it. He saw the destruction of the Ring as Eucatastrophe, Just as **Qadgop** said, an act of Grace on the part of Iluvater. And, as far as I’m concerned, Grace is just Caprice, dressed-up in religious clothes and pretending to be a good thing. Sudden, unlooked for, undeserved. So while I was thinking Tolkien was making a wonderful statement about the nature of Evil, and how it inherently leads to its own destruction, he was really making a statement about his God, who does occasional wonderful things for people because it seems like a good idea at the time, and who presumably can similarly do nasty things for the same (non-)reason. In real life, I think Evil does tend to be somewhat short-sighted and therefore can be self-destructive, but I think chance plays a large role in what actually happens. But Middle-earth is not real life, and I thought it was such a great, self-contained, inherently logical way for the situation to be resolved. And I find it hard to believe that Tolkien didn’t at least have some of that idea in mind himself, because it does wrap up so perfectly. Gollum swears to obey the Master or be cast into the Fire, Gollum betrays the Master, Gollum is cast into the Fire. Lovely. But apparently that’s not the way Tolkien wanted it to be read. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2011, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/70 "2011-01-28T18:57:48Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Negligence on the part of Sauron the landlord in not putting in no slip flooring in a dangerous work area. I’m bringing suit on behalf of Smeagol’s next of kin. ANd they failed to install railings. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/71 "2011-02-19T21:48:50Z")
Well, you know the Nazgul; they get railings, they’re just gonna _lean_ on 'em alla the time. ---
**Author:** ![MikeG](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mikeg/32/4329_2.png) [@MikeG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MikeG)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/72 "2011-02-19T22:02:24Z")
> [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](#): > > Gollum gets the ball rolling by giving Bilbo the ring in the Hobbit, so it’s only fitting he brings the saga to end. Writing 101, nothing more. I hope that I’m getting wooshed here. Gollum most definitely did not give BB the Ring, BB found it while crawling around in the dark after having escaped the goblins. ---
**Author:** ![Superhal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Superhal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superhal)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2011, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942/73 "2011-02-19T22:52:37Z")
How could there not be a choice for “unobtanium?” Not a precious poll at all. Not preciooooous. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gollum-slipped-and-fell-in-the-fires-of-the-sammath-naur-because/568942.md?page=3)