# Gonzalez may have lied to Congress; Dem calls for special prosecutor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261 "2007-07-10T21:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/41 "2007-07-27T01:58:25Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] [FBI Director Contradicts Gonzales](http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8QKFK4O0&show_article=1) [/QUOTE] Seriously, somebody should ask Tony Snow tomorrow; which one is lying? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/42 "2007-07-27T02:20:48Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Seriously, somebody should ask Tony Snow tomorrow; which one is lying? [/QUOTE] He was asked today, and he said Mueller was talking about a different program. I have to admit that if you watch the video of the exchange between Mueller and Lee, there is something very odd going on. For some reason, he won’t come out and say “TSP”, when she asks him and he gets this pained look on his face as he says “an NSA program”. It’s almost like he’s trying to agree with her and disagree with her at the same time. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/43 "2007-07-27T02:25:40Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] He was asked today, and he said Mueller was talking about a different program. I have to admit that if you watch the video of the exchange between Mueller and Lee, there is something very odd going on. For some reason, he won’t come out and say “TSP”, when she asks him and he gets this pained look on his face as he says “an NSA program”. It’s almost like he’s trying to agree with her and disagree with her at the same time. [/QUOTE] Obviously one that the “Moral Integrity Blind Trust” board of directors missed when he signed on with the Bush administration…he’s actually able to fight the Kool-Aid, however feebly. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/44 "2007-07-27T02:36:05Z")
[QUOTE=jayjay] Obviously one that the “Moral Integrity Blind Trust” board of directors missed when he signed on with the Bush administration…he’s actually able to fight the Kool-Aid, however feebly. [/QUOTE] Maybe. I was left very confused, not knowing what the hell Mueller was trying to say. The print article doesn’t do it justice-- you have to see the video clip, with his hesitations and body language. He’s choosing his words awfully carefully for someone who is simply trying to agree. I get the sense that there is more to this. Just my opinion at this point, and I could be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/45 "2007-07-27T02:44:43Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Maybe. I was left very confused, not knowing what the hell Mueller was trying to say. The print article doesn’t do it justice-- you have to see the video clip, with his hesitations and body language. He’s choosing his words awfully carefully for someone who is simply trying to agree. I get the sense that there is more to this. Just my opinion at this point, and I could be wrong. [/QUOTE] It could be that he doesn’t want to risk saying something about classified projects in an open forum. I’d think that in his line of work, that would be a fairly common problem. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/46 "2007-07-27T03:10:14Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I get the sense that there is more to this. [/QUOTE] Yes, it’s like they’re dancing around, trying to avoid mentioning the slave labor camps used to impliment the terrorist surveillance program or something. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/47 "2007-07-27T14:27:17Z")
[FBI Director Mueller now contradicts Gonzalez, “telling Congress that a prominent warrantless surveillance program was the subject of a dramatic legal debate within the Bush administration.”](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/27/AR2007072700005.html?hpid=topnews) > [@](#): > > Mueller’s testimony appears to mark the first public confirmation from a Bush administration official that the National Security Agency’s Terrorist Surveillance Program was at issue in an unusual nighttime visit by Gonzales to the hospital bedside of then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft, who was under sedation and recovering from surgery. > > Mueller’s remarks to the House Judiciary Committee differed from testimony earlier in the week from Gonzales, who told a Senate panel that a legal disagreement aired at the hospital did not concern the NSA program. Details of the program, kept secret for four years, were confirmed by President Bush in December 2005, provoking wide controversy on Capitol Hill. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/48 "2007-07-27T14:34:43Z")
**Bricker:** > [@](#): > > Gonzales should resign, be fired, or be impeached (in order of decreasing preference) and the question of his perjury should be submitted to a grand jury. (emphasis added) But there’s no underlying crime. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/49 "2007-07-27T15:00:42Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Yes, it’s like they’re dancing around, trying to avoid mentioning the slave labor camps used to impliment the terrorist surveillance program or something. [/QUOTE] My thoughts were that he might actually be talking about another program, and that program might have been much worse than the one Lee was asking about. Maybe he was saying: I can’t mention this program first, so please ask me about it. But it appears that all the news sources are reporting this as a direct contradiction of what AG said, so I’m probably wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/50 "2007-07-27T16:04:21Z")
[QUOTE=Ass For A Hat] If the AG’s actions warrant his removal, why isn’t the president’s removal also warranted? The AG’s mendacity and the president’s support of it, seem to leave but one reasonable conclusion…that the AG’s actions have been taken at the behest of the president. [/quote] On the contrary. The President wasn’t at the meeting. The President isn’t the person that appears to have lied to Congress under oath. It’s true that the President is supporting Conzales rather than asking for his resignation. But he may simply not believe, as I now do, that Gonzales is lying. He’s perfectly entitled to draw his own conclusions and use his own observations to weigh Gonzales’ credibility. I haven’t looked the AG in the eye and said, “C’mon Al – tell me the truth.” Perhaps if I did, I’d have a different opinion. From where I sit, there is probable cause to believe that Gonzales committed perjury, and a federal grand jury should consider that question. That doesn’t mean that the President is obligated to agree with me, and that he’s a liar, conspirator, or fool if he does not. > [@](#): > > If there were more direct evidence of the president’s role in this mess at the Justice Department, would you then support his removal? Absolutely. ---
**Author:** ![Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Ass\_For\_A\_Hat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ass_For_A_Hat)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/51 "2007-07-27T18:03:22Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] On the contrary. The President wasn’t at the meeting. The President isn’t the person that appears to have lied to Congress under oath. [/QUOTE] True. The president isn’t the one who appears to have committed perjury. However, the AG’s outright refusal to answer questions about what the president directed him to do implies very strongly a role for the president. Gonzales did not claim any privilege, he simply refused to answer the questions. I may have my biases, but I just don’t see any other reasonable conclusion to draw. > [@](#): > > But he may simply not believe, as I now do, that Gonzales is lying. That’s certainly possible. Do you really think this is a reasonable conclusion though? What’s your opinion? Most people following this extravaganza have probably formed an opinion on this. Clearly, I have…and maybe I’m wrong. But do you really think the president believes that the AG isn’t lying? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/52 "2007-07-27T18:19:05Z")
[QUOTE=Gadarene] **Bricker:** (emphasis added) But there’s no underlying crime. 🆒 [/QUOTE] [shrug] There wasn’t in Clinton’s case either. Nevertheless, the lie by itself was considered sufficient grounds for impeachment. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/53 "2007-07-27T18:20:31Z")
> [@](#): > > [shrug] There wasn’t in Clinton’s case either. Nevertheless, the lie by itself was considered sufficient grounds for impeachment. Indeed. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/54 "2007-07-27T18:21:30Z")
Gonzalez sees himself and his staff as the presidents personal lawyers. He is not the peoples lawyer. Very fundamental when the checks and balances are so easily melted. ---
**Author:** ![Rachm\_Qoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Rachm\_Qoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachm_Qoch)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/55 "2007-07-27T21:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] My thoughts were that he might actually be talking about another program, and that program might have been much worse than the one Lee was asking about. Maybe he was saying: I can’t mention this program first, so please ask me about it. But it appears that all the news sources are reporting this as a direct contradiction of what AG said, so I’m probably wrong. [/QUOTE] Coming out in support of Gonzales, the National Review opines that he was telling the truth, essentially because Dubya had not yet dubbed the program in its current form as _The TSP_™. Since the TSP had not existed by that name in the same form at the time in question, the AG was supposedly correct in terming it “other intelligence activities.” He wasn’t speaking of a completely different illegal NSA program. Or so the theory goes. As the Justice Dept’s spokespeople continue to say that the weasel was truthful in his testimony, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is what he had in mind when he appeared on Wednesday. [National Review Online: Accusations That Gonzales Lied To Congress Are Without Merit](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/27/opinion/main3104511.shtml) > [@](#): > > The resulting dispute within the administration led to the famous hospital scene, after which President Bush sided with the Justice Department officials and narrowed the program. Many months later, the New York Times revealed the existence of this now-narrowed program; President Bush then confirmed its existence and named it the “Terrorist Surveillance Program”; and Gonzales defended it. > > When Gonzales said that “there has not been any serious disagreement about the program that the president has confirmed,” then, he was referring to the later, narrowed version of terrorist surveillance, and as far as we know he was correct. Other disputed Gonzales comments appear to follow the same basic pattern. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/56 "2007-07-27T23:21:38Z")
I also note that NR (damn, why do both the National Review and New Republic have to go by initials?!) also claims that the questioning was deliberately designed to confuse/corral Gonzales into answers that would appear bad - a “have you stopped beating your wife” kind of thing, I guess. OTOH, if the highest ranking lawyer in the land can’t figure out a way to avoid that from a bunch of Congressmen, mebbe he isn’t quite fit for his position. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/57 "2007-07-28T00:16:47Z")
[QUOTE=Rachm Qoch] Coming out in support of Gonzales, the National Review opines that he was telling the truth, essentially because Dubya had not yet dubbed the program in its current form as _The TSP_™. Since the TSP had not existed by that name in the same form at the time in question, the AG was supposedly correct in terming it “other intelligence activities.” He wasn’t speaking of a completely different illegal NSA program. Or so the theory goes. As the Justice Dept’s spokespeople continue to say that the weasel was truthful in his testimony, I wouldn’t be surprised if this is what he had in mind when he appeared on Wednesday. [National Review Online: Accusations That Gonzales Lied To Congress Are Without Merit](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/27/opinion/main3104511.shtml) [/QUOTE] Interesting. That might also explain why Mueller seemed to be talking not so much about the TSP, but another program. If it was a predecessor program he might still be bound by its classified status and not be free to discuss it openly. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. The Republicans don’t seem inclined to vote on contempt of Congress yet, so maybe they are holding that as a trump card to get Bush to fire AG. I’m sure Bush just wants to try and ride this out for 18 more months… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/58 "2007-07-28T00:33:44Z")
NPR today reported an Admin spokeswoman insisted Gonzalez did not lie, but she can’t elaborate without breaching national security. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/59 "2007-07-28T00:43:52Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] NPR today reported an Admin spokeswoman insisted Gonzalez did not lie, but she can’t elaborate without breaching national security. [/QUOTE] If it was an earlier, more controversial program, then a few Congresscritters on the House Intelligence Committee probably know about it. I wonder if the ranking members of the Judiciary Committee would have been briefed…? ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2007, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/60 "2007-07-28T00:50:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] she can’t elaborate without breaching national security. [/QUOTE] Well, then she or another admin official can testify before the committee in closed session, under oath, with note-taking allowed, and explain exactly what it is that Gonzales and Mueller meant. If they refuse to take that reasonable step, we can all rest assured that they’re just bullshitting us, _again_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261.md?page=4)