# Gonzalez may have lied to Congress; Dem calls for special prosecutor **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 10, 2007, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261 "2007-07-10T21:05:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/101 "2007-07-29T20:07:16Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Do you have any clue what the word “hypocrite” means? [/QUOTE] Nice dodge. You’ll have your black belt in lawyer-fu in no time! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/102 "2007-07-29T21:40:53Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Do you have any clue what the word “hypocrite” means? [/QUOTE] This is not a dodge. My accusation was hypocrisy; you responded with disbelief and suggested it was I being hypocritical. Since the entire thrust of my point is that I am treating both “friends” and “enemies” precisely the same, while your crowd is denying that Clinton committed perjury while sceaming that Gonzales did. I have said before, and will repeat here again, that Clinton’s perjury was appropriately punished by his loss of his law license, and that Libby’s was appropriately punished by a prison sentence, so yes, obviously I recognize a difference in the seriousness of the subject matter. But I also recognize that both men committed perjury, because I am willing to apply the same standards to each. You are not. You claim that you are. That makes you a hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 29, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/103 "2007-07-29T23:08:37Z")
“The same standards” meaning “wasn’t charged” equals “convicted and sentenced”"? :dubious: Even your trademark technicalityspeak doesn’t permit that much stretch to reach a _tu quoque_. Come on now. You’re not fooling anybody but yourself, and probably not even yourself either. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/104 "2007-07-30T00:29:48Z")
[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves] “The same standards” meaning “wasn’t charged” equals “convicted and sentenced”"? :dubious: Even your trademark technicalityspeak doesn’t permit that much stretch to reach a _tu quoque_. [/QUOTE] Wait. Clinton voluntarily surrended his law license (and paid a fine) as part of a agreement with the prosecutor. The question of his guilt in the matter is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/105 "2007-07-30T05:21:59Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] This is not a dodge. My accusation was hypocrisy; you responded with disbelief and suggested it was I being hypocritical. Since the entire thrust of my point is that I am treating both “friends” and “enemies” precisely the same, while your crowd is denying that Clinton committed perjury while sceaming that Gonzales did. I have said before, and will repeat here again, that Clinton’s perjury was appropriately punished by his loss of his law license, and that Libby’s was appropriately punished by a prison sentence, so yes, obviously I recognize a difference in the seriousness of the subject matter. But I also recognize that both men committed perjury, because I am willing to apply the same standards to each. You are not. You claim that you are. That makes you a hypocrite. [/QUOTE] Just how many liberals can you find that say that Clinton shouldn’t have lost his law license? Is there even one? I think it’s more likely that you’re just assuming that we hold a position that we actually don’t, in order to confirm your own bias against us. Just look at it logically, here. You disagree with liberal politics. You also find liberals personally distasteful, implying that they’re more hypocritical than conservatives. Do you suppose that one has a connection to the other? Do you honestly believe that one’s political beliefs align with their likelihood of hypocrisy? Gonzales is being confronted for his role what looks likely to be the most devious and dangerous federal government scandal since the Grant admin, and you’re pointing out that we’re all hypocrites for being more angry about this than we were about Lewinsky. How in the world does that make sense? Why the hell isn’t EVERYONE up in arms about this? ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/106 "2007-07-30T12:46:14Z")
Because, if a Democrat had done the exact thing it would have been worse. Q.E.D. (duh) -Joe ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/107 "2007-07-30T14:26:09Z")
[QUOTE=Mosier] Just how many liberals can you find that say that Clinton shouldn’t have lost his law license? Is there even one? I think it’s more likely that you’re just assuming that we hold a position that we actually don’t, in order to confirm your own bias against us. [/quote] How many can I find that say Clinton did not commit perjury? There’s at least one is this thread. I’ve talked to many more, both here and in real life. > [@](#): > > Just look at it logically, here. You disagree with liberal politics. You also find liberals personally distasteful, implying that they’re more hypocritical than conservatives. Do you suppose that one has a connection to the other? Do you honestly believe that one’s political beliefs align with their likelihood of hypocrisy? Who said I find liberals personally distasteful?? I said: “It perfectly exemplifies the hypocrisy that I believe permeates **a certain slice of the left here**.” I wasn’t smearing all liberals, nor even all liberals here. I freely admit that hypocrisy may be found in somewhat equal measure on both sides of the aisle, perhaps even in larger measure on the right, simply because the right seems to include more people willing to offer opinions about how others should lead their lives. But when a poster here twists, turns, bends, and leaps to deny the basic and obvious fact that Clinton lied under oath, we could assume he’s either very forgiving about perjury or very hypertechnical. Nothing wrong with that. When the same poster opines that Gonzales is a perjurer, though… what’s left but an accusation of hypocrisy? > [@](#): > > Gonzales is being confronted for his role what looks likely to be the most devious and dangerous federal government scandal since the Grant admin, and you’re pointing out that we’re all hypocrites for being more angry about this than we were about Lewinsky. How in the world does that make sense? Why the hell isn’t EVERYONE up in arms about this? Again, where do you get “we’re all” hypocrites? If you don’t balk at the proposition that Clinton perjured himself, then you’re no hypocrite. If you maintain that Clinton didn’t perjury himself – and NEITHER DID GONZALES – then you’re no hypocrite. But if you maintain that Clinton didn’t and Gonzales did… ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/108 "2007-07-30T14:52:42Z")
[Has Gonzo _always_ been a liar?](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2003812320_gonzales30.html) (“It almost seems pathological.” – Chuck Schumer) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 30, 2007, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/109 "2007-07-30T23:43:59Z")
[House Dems are planning to introduce a resolution tomorrow to begin impeachment proceedings against Gonzalez.](http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2007/07/30/297411.aspx) It’s not a set of Articles of Impeachment, just a preliminary step, calling on the Judiciary Committee to investigate whether AGAG should be impeached for high crimes and misdemeanors. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/110 "2007-07-31T00:14:33Z")
Uh oh, looks like Gonzo got the[kiss of death](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/30/politics/main3112785.shtml?source=mostpop_story): > [@](#): > > Vice President Dick Cheney said Monday that he is a “big fan” of embattled Attorney General Alberto Gonzales. Remember when Cheney was the [last guy supporting Rumsfeld](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15622266/)? Cheney is like that [cat in the nursing home](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959718/). ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/111 "2007-07-31T00:17:56Z")
[QUOTE=Fear Itself] Uh oh, looks like Gonzo got the[kiss of death](http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/07/30/politics/main3112785.shtml?source=mostpop_story):Remember when Cheney was the [last guy supporting Rumsfeld](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15622266/)? Cheney is like that [cat in the nursing home](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19959718/). [/QUOTE] ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/112 "2007-07-31T02:53:48Z")
[quote-Bricker] ([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3348429&postcount=23](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=3348429&postcount=23)) > [@](#): > > So, if you prefer to argue solely in the real, it-happened-or-it-didn’t world, then your case is made. No jury ever found Mr. Clinton guilty. Period. So what happened in the meanwhile? Besides the appearance of something else a Clinton-did-it-too was needed for, that is? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/113 "2007-07-31T03:00:18Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] There is every likelihood that there were any number of secret programs that these guys are not at liberty to discuss. [/QUOTE] :dubious: Not in the **Justice** Department! The very **existence** of a secret program there (not Abscam secret, but Black Ops secret) would be reasonable grounds for suspicion of an impeachable offense, if not an impeachable offense in its own right! Remember COINTELPRO?! That thing for which Hoover should have been crucified? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/114 "2007-07-31T14:26:19Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] ohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohpleaseohplease! [/QUOTE] Universe, I know I haven’t been a very good pantheist… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/115 "2007-07-31T14:53:18Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] :dubious: Not in the **Justice** Department! The very **existence** of a secret program there (not Abscam secret, but Black Ops secret) would be reasonable grounds for suspicion of an impeachable offense, if not an impeachable offense in its own right! Remember COINTELPRO?! That thing for which Hoover should have been crucified? [/QUOTE] Secret NSA programs. I don’t know if that’s considered part of the Justice Dept. or not. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 31, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/116 "2007-07-31T15:45:27Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Secret NSA programs. I don’t know if that’s considered part of the Justice Dept. or not. [/QUOTE] [It isn’t.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nsa) It’s part of the Defense Department. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/117 "2007-08-02T17:11:24Z")
[Gonzales to senators: ‘I may have created confusion’](http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/08/01/congress.surveillance/index.html?section=cnn_topstories&eref=yahoo): > [@](#): > > "I recognize that the use of the term ‘Terrorist Surveillance Program’ and my shorthand reference to the ‘program’ publicly ‘described by the President’ may have created confusion, particularly for those who are knowledgeable about the NSA activities authorized in the presidential order described by the DNI [director of national intelligence], and who may be accustomed to thinking of them or referring to them together as a single NSA ‘program,’ " Gonzales wrote. If Gonzales confused all those who are knowledgeable about the NSA activities, what did he do to the rest of us? I can’t think of a good or honorable reason for giving that type of testimony. Can anyone? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/118 "2007-08-02T17:40:17Z")
National Intelligence Director Mitch McConnell now is defending Gonzalez – saying he did not lie, and confusion arose about his words simply because, since Bush’s secret executive order in late 2001, [there are many secret surveillance programs other than the one whose existence has been disclosed.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/31/AR2007073102137.html?hpid=topnews) How reassuring. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/119 "2007-08-02T18:23:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] National Intelligence Director Mitch McConnell now is defending Gonzalez – saying he did not lie, and confusion arose about his words simply because, since Bush’s secret executive order in late 2001, [there are many secret surveillance programs other than the one whose existence has been disclosed.](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/31/AR2007073102137.html?hpid=topnews) How reassuring. [/QUOTE] Dude, what do you think the NSA does-- sell Girl Scout Cookies? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2007, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261/120 "2007-08-02T18:25:55Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Dude, what do you think the NSA does-- sell Girl Scout Cookies? [/QUOTE] At any rate, considerably more than it did before 2001 – but we don’t know exactly what. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzalez-may-have-lied-to-congress-dem-calls-for-special-prosecutor/411261.md?page=7)