# Gonzomax...you are clueless **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 6, 2008, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977 "2008-06-06T04:12:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/61 "2008-06-07T16:20:38Z")
By all means, ice it up. In the meanwhile, I’m sure I can recommend many anime themed boards where you’d be very happy and wouldn’t have to put up with all this damned ‘reading’ or ‘learning’. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/62 "2008-06-07T16:20:43Z")
So you would suggest .if I wish to find out the truth about religion I should see a priest. They work in the field after all. That gives them authority and expertise. Those inside a field have financial reasons to defend a position. You should view their opinions through that perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/63 "2008-06-07T16:32:34Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] _\_ I see similarity in the facility with satire, and not necessarily the focus of subject matter or political bent. And I’ve read enough Mencken to know that he’d probably be bemused by your apparent admiration, as you’re precisely the kind of credulous fool he frequently railed against. And true to form, too stupid to realize it. Now if you’ll excuse me, I’m going to go ice down my index finger. [/QUOTE] You should wash it first, to get the shit off of it. You’ll probably eat the ice when you’re done, this could be your introduction to something know as “hygiene”. If you and I were to dig up and reanimate Mencken, I have no doubt that it would be your partisan sycophanthy that would raise his ire, rather then my common sense cynicism. > [@](#): > > The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary. Wise words. You ought to internalize them sometime. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/64 "2008-06-07T17:53:52Z")
It is a common practice to preface needless self-revelation with the words “for the record.” For the record, I don’t much care for Menken. Yes, he has wit, but it is cold and bitter wit, rather like Bierce. He lacks the solemn and sorrowed humanity of Twain and Vonegut. And without love, its all nothing but howling in the wilderness, no? If you find my one-liners annoying, its easily fixed, simply note my name, pick up your little basket and skip along, skip along. I might very well (and sometimes do) post elaborate arguments that bounce off the armored prejudices of intellectual tortoises like a Nerf ball against a Sherman tank. Perhaps I can change your mind that way. Perhaps. But if I can make you laugh, I’ve\* already \* changed your mind. And all I risk is being thought a fool. To quote The Master: > [@](#): > > Power, money, persuasion, supplication, persecution – these can lift at a colossal humbug – push it a little – weaken it a little over the course of a century; but only laughter can blow it to rags and atoms at a blast. Against the assault of laughter nothing can stand ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/65 "2008-06-07T18:23:06Z")
Bless your heart! You actually think that fact-free mockery serves a purpose in a forum called Great Debates. Wouldn’t it be just awesome if, in the next thread about evolutionary mechanics, nobody posted cites or discussed underlying logic, but everybody just cracked jokes? That’d be a great board, right, if there was more than one of you? That way, people who didn’t have the facts and were reading the thread to fight their ignorance could determine the truth or falsehood of various models of evolution based on which side earned more yucks. You are totally right. I’d wager many people never even realized how much quality information would be shared, and how much great debating would go on in Shecky’s Comedy Debate Shack. Truly, I was wrong when I stated that you contribute nothing of value and add only content-free troll posts. Ever so wrong. How sad it is that the boards aren’t positively flooded with such valuable contributors as you. You have shown me the light. If only you could have shown me the error of my ways with some timely yo mamma jokes, all this could have been avoided! Do you think that maybe, just maybe, in a forum dedicated to _debating_, you’re supposed to be… _debating_? I know, debating in a forum dedicated to debating is so far out there that the possibility probably never even occurred to you. Much like how looking at a document which has, in 30 point type on literally every other page “The 9/11 Commission Report” left you baffled as to what the source was. Much like the reasons one might spend time reading cites before attempting to refute their contents sails right over your head. Oh boy. I hope we can some day reach the peak of debating techniques: fake vomit. Oooh, oooh, dribble glasses! Exploding cigars! Good Gods, we’ve been going about this whole ‘debating’ thing all wrong! ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/66 "2008-06-07T19:03:55Z")
See, right there! Perfect example, took you over 300 words to say “Fuck you!” Sarcasm without wit is like potatoes without salt. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/67 "2008-06-07T19:41:18Z")
Feigning a lack of reading comprehension in order to argue dishonestly? Boy, what a wit you are! ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/68 "2008-06-07T21:21:45Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] What’s that? Colonialism was good? White Men had a Burden? Thank goodness for the brutalization and near extermination of native populations in the name of gold, slaves and land? Awwwww you, what a scamp! [/quote] It’s apparently called “Israel’s Burden” in modern times. You are the current kings of brutal colonization. Congrats and have another drink. > [@](#): > > P.S. I see you’re probably hitting the sauce pretty early today, so you might want to read this after you’ve had a chance to sober up, or just read it now… very… sloooooowly: relying on facts in debates and expecting people to know what the fuck they’re talking about before they decide to start an argument, or at the very least being willing to evaluate data and concede when they’re spewing bullshit, is not pompous, it’s kinda, ya know, what people who aren’t brainstem-level, frothing, trollish babblers… understand to be proper debating behavior. > > Which means, of course, that no fair person would expect you to have achieved that kind of understanding. > Happy drinking. Speaking of ‘hitting the sauce’ it’s quite apparent you have issues with this matter. IOW, you’re projecting, dipship. Up the meds, son. Or join AA or NA – or both, you deluded, condescending cumstain. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/69 "2008-06-07T22:00:01Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] Feigning a lack of reading comprehension in order to argue dishonestly? Boy, what a wit you are! [/QUOTE] Shorter! Much improved! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/70 "2008-06-07T22:06:13Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] It’s apparently called “Israel’s Burden” in modern times. [/quote] Thank you. I didn’t feel the need to explicitly point out that you are pretty much always trolling when you pretend to care for populations under occupation, as such ‘concern’ only surfaces when you have an opportunity to troll people about Israel. I’m glad you pointed it out for me. It was very kind and considerate of you to take care of that chore yourself. Cheers. (Whoops, that’s the British expression for thanks. Don’t start taking more shots just yet.) You also seem to have become afflicted with Lucy’s Disease. See, even though you’re drunk, you should be able to realize that everybody and their sister just noticed you changed the subject from your rather enthusiastic act of supporting colonialism, slavery and genocidal Spanish conquest… to Israel. Not only is it not a very convincing dodge, everybody reading along knows full well that you just endorsed White Man’s Burden and all of Spain’s colonial horrors, and then when you were caught being a Janus faced jackass, you tried to change the subject. If you’re going to be aping Lucy, you not only have to change the subject, you also have to feign stupidity (which is hard, as you’re actually stupid), ‘accidentally’ misunderstand what someone else is saying, ‘miss’ the point of their post and construct an absurd caricature and engage in some ever so clever satire-crafting on the level of masters such as Carrot Top and Gallagher. You might want to start with “I know you are, but what am I?” Later you might perhaps graduate to “I’m rubber, you’re glue.” Don’t worry, you’ll get the hang of it sooner or later. Troll harder. Now, we don’t have to get into your deliberate falsifications of history and current events, as we know that every time I bash your head in with facts, you run away like a whiney little bitch and moan about how I’m such a zealot (or if you’re particularly drunk and racist that day, a “Jewish zealot”), that you simply cannot refute any of my facts. Little known factoid, but untrue claims related by a “zealot”, especially a ~gasp!~ “Jewish zealot” simply cannot be rebutted or refuted due to Transdimensional Talmud Rays. It’s true, look it up. Perhaps Glutton will be by with a Wikipedia cite. I could also point out that you’re a dishonest little shit of a troll and that only a scumfuck like you would claim that decades of massive population growth could be cast as a population being ‘almost exterminated’, but we all know you’re a lying angry drunken troll, eh? Save yourself some time and let’s just pretend that I’ve eviscerated you on factual grounds on every single particular bit of bullshit you vomited forth, again, and you’ve run away like a coward, again, while whining and yipping about how you simply can’t refute what you claim are untruths, if a nasty Jew says them. Why, with Luc doing his song and dance and you doing yours, this could be a Great Debate! Quick, let’s get Brain Glutton in here to suggest that any American Jew who is uppity enough to disagree with his opinions on Israel is really a nefarious traitor whose primary loyalty is to a foreign power and who is willing to sacrifice their own family, home and very life for Israel! Then we’d really be engaged in some intellectually rigorous debate. Boy howdy! [QUOTE=RedFury] You are the current kings of brutal colonization. [/quote] We are? And who would we be, I wonder? High School English Teachers? MMO gamers? New Yorkers? Gee, I simply cannot figure out which group of people you are claiming are the ‘kings of brutal colonization’ and why you are including me in this group. Hrm… people with dirty-blond hair? Skiers? Cat owners? Fanzine editors? I sure hope you’re drinking enough today that we can see what you really think. Cut loose brother. Try the Jager. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/71 "2008-06-07T23:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] …We are? And who would we be, I wonder? High School English Teachers?.. [/QUOTE] No! Well, gosh, no wonder you’re so bitter and spiteful! Really, I had no idea. I forgive you. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/72 "2008-06-07T23:07:25Z")
TLTR. Have a great indoctrinating career. Meanwhile, I’m shutting the 'puter down and going for a RL spin. As a matter of curiosity, are you American or Israeli? Rhetorical query no answer needed for you’ve answered a plenty in your multiple simplistic screeds lathered in spit. TTFN, self-proclaimed brainac. Turn-off the puter and find a nice (Israeli?) women (or dude, couldn’t care less) to go out with. You really do spend way too much time here playing [your powerful Lobby’s advocate](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Jewish+lobby&spell=1) and spoke-person…if only by repeating their bullshit with little thought involved on your part – a parrot would do as well. Perhaps you should look into a new hobby. Like changing your stinky diapers more often… Have a great life…just no where near me, you puffed-up dual-nationalist cunt. Cheers, Zionist Tool. Trust it all goes well for you and you can bomb anyone you don’t like into submission. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2008, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/73 "2008-06-07T23:27:14Z")
Yeah! Rant alkey, rant! Much too bad that your bigotry and racism never seem to earn you a ban. So very sad. I’d like to see how long a troll would last who habitually responded to an American black person who took an ‘improper’ interest in African affairs with “Go back to Africa.” or “Go be with an African woman” And of course, you know full well I’m an American, as we’ve done this dance before. Then again, as predicted, you didn’t retract your lies, touch on any facts, and have resorted to your normal drunken ad hom fallacies. And of course, you don’t have to retract your lies or touch on any facts because (drumroll please) I’m a Zionist Tool. Who ever could have predicted that? Interestingly enough, the recent survey which tracked the correlation between anti-Israel bigotry and anti-Semitism in Europe found that Spain was, by far, the worst offender and that with a great degree of precision, anti-Israel sentiments in Spaniards predicted anti-Semitism. Just an interesting tidbit, eh? It’s okay… although I have to admit, you really are a piece of infectious human waste for supporting Spain’s colonialism. Still, bonus points for coming right out with your paranoid racist fantasies of Jewish/Zionist conspirators hiding under your bed. Booga booga! And while I’m at it, isn’t it odd that only one country in the entire world has a special word to describe people who think that it would be a nifty idea if it _went on existing?_ No, you wouldn’t find that odd, would you? Ah well. I’m glad you took my advice and switched to the Jager. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/74 "2008-06-08T04:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=FinnAgain] In the meanwhile, I’m sure I can recommend many anime themed boards where you’d be very happy [/QUOTE] Now, let’s not be needlessly cruel. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/75 "2008-06-08T06:08:40Z")
Well…the thread has sure gone in interesting directions since I last checked in. 😛 [QUOTE=RedFury] xt, not my problem that you have self-hatred issues. Look at the bright side, if it wasn’t for us your ancestors would have probably had their heart ripped out by one barbaric god or another and then…you wouldn’t be here to defend all that is indefensible about naked greed. [/QUOTE] Leaving aside the self-hatred issues (I don’t actually have any, being self absorbed and all that), are you really saying here that my Indian ancestors were better off being wiped out by the Spanish than they would have been slaughtering each other for religious purposes? That your Spaniards plundered and killed…for my ancestors own good? Seriously? Seriously Red…if one of us has delusions and probably self-hatred issues I’m guessing that party is the one looking out each day from your own mirror. You try and hand wave it, but your own ancestors were the biggest pack of unhanged cross bearing, gun toting, exploitive and murderous scum that has ever been the misfortune to be inflicted on native peoples world wide in history. You can TRY and make out that the US is somehow comparable…but we aren’t even in the same league as Spain was back in the day. You may think that the US is unpopular…but centuries after Spain was a real country (instead of the two bit wana-be power it is today) they are STILL hated where I come from. And always will be. [QUOTE=RedFury] Then again as I told you long ago, go ahead and get that full Anglosaxon blood transfusion and call MJ for tips on how to look less Hispanic/dark. [/QUOTE] If I could purge myself from the Spanish taint I certainly would. Since I have no choice in my parentage I simply live with it. You seem to revel in it though. At any rate, since you weren’t worth pitting I didn’t come here to squabble with you. You know how I feel about your filthy nation and it’s glorious history. I don’t even like to SPEAK Spanish and avoid it like the plague if I can help it. I’ll let you keep your delusions about your nations glorious past as it seems to be a comfort for you. [QUOTE=gonzomax] So you would suggest .if I wish to find out the truth about religion I should see a priest. They work in the field after all. That gives them authority and expertise. [/QUOTE] Well the. quick Brow ndowng. Baby monkey fuck an. Sorros thhinkss, field work for. And thtats not all! [Prooff!](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/incomprehensible) Read and enjoy! -XT ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/76 "2008-06-08T06:32:41Z")
[QUOTE=RedFury] Cheers, Zionist Tool. Trust it all goes well for you and you can bomb anyone you don’t like into submission. [/QUOTE] I’m not so sure that that’s a valid observation, although it must seem like it to a Spaniard since it only takes one bomb before Spain turns it’s belly up to the aggressor, Vatican City could bomb Spain into submission. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/77 "2008-06-08T07:14:09Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] Well…the thread has sure gone in interesting directions since I last checked in. 😛 [/quote] Two funny things (at least to me). In my last direct response to lucy, before I ran out of troll snacks and couldn’t feed him anymore? (you can make the motion like you’re going to throw them another troll snack and the troll will run around and hunt on the ground for it, but the trollydog eyes they give you when they can’t find the snack? Heartbreaking) I’d written in white text "Predicted response: “well, at least that was shorter.” I figured, of course, that if someone was going to use predictable, obvious, crap humor to avoid any discussion of the issues, that would be the most likely choice. Then I got to thinking, and figured that no matter what elucidator’s many failings as someone who can hold an intelligent conversation, that he wasn’t that pathetic. I got a conversation in my head something like: “You are wrong on seven particulars, inventing three facts, ignoring five separate issues and dishonestly recasting two of my arguments. What do you have to say for yourself?” “Yuck yuck yuck, you sure do write out the names for a lot of numbers, don’t you?” I figured that not even good ol’ predictable lucy was quite that much of a waste of electrons. I mean, it’s a job that most decent bots could be set up to do. Which, of course, brings me to my next point… I believe we may have, all this time, been interacting with the Lucybot. Perhaps, even, Lucybot 2.5. It is, undoubtedly, one of the only entities to pass the Turing Test and rather than a tiresome disruptive troll, it’s actually a magnificent work of software engineering. Really puts everything in perspective. The second, of course, is that it takes surprisingly little pressure for AngryRed to go from zero to drunken racist, colonialist, and tinfoil hattist. Man, I can’t even imagine the hate he’d have to be filled with if, instead of just hating Jews and Israel, he actually applied this style of thinking across the board. “Well, I believe NATO is an important ally and you’ve made numerous factually inaccurate claims about it which…” “NATO firster!” “… wait, what? NATO firster? I’ve just gotten done with trying to discuss the factual underpinnings of…” “British stooge! Go back to Britain if that’s where your real loyalty lies, traitor!” “…okay, look, can you actually touch on any of the factual issues here or…” “Bangers and Mash! Bubbles and Squeek!!! You probably drink milk with your tea, too, you Anglo Patsy! Just like your filthy kind to secretly control American foreign policy to suit your own evil ends.” While we don’t have actual figures, it seems to have taken precious little time and alcohol to get him to start ranting about, not W&M’s hack job of a thesis about the “Israel Lobby”, but about an evidently far more sinister “Jewish Lobby”, and of course about how an American Jew who is uppity enough to rely on facts is, probably, a traitor to his nation and owes his allegiance to World Je, er, Zionim. Of course, he couldn’t be bothered to add anything other than google vomit, but some fun links from the first cite he vomited out among that pack (unfortunately, of course, Wiki) > [@](#): > > Susan Jacobs of Manchester Metropolitan University states that the phrase, when used “without mentioning other ‘lobbies’ or differentiating Jews who have different political positions on a number of questions, including Israel and Palestine”, is a contemporary form of the fear of a Jewish conspiracy.[9] Robert S. Wistrich, of the International Center for the Study of Anti-Semitism, Hebrew University of Jerusalem, sees reference to the phrase, when used to describe an “all-powerful ‘Jewish Lobby’” that controls Middle Eastern policy, as reliance on a classic antisemitic stereotype.[citation needed] > > Dominique Vidal writes that in France, the term had been exclusively used by the French far right as “a phrase that combines standard anti-semitic fantasies about Jewish finance, media control and power; the term is the contemporary equivalent of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion.”[3] Bruno Bettelheim detested the term, arguing “The self-importance of Jews combined with the paranoia of the anti-Semite had created the image of this lobby.”[10] > > Michael Visontay, editor of Australia’s The Sydney Morning Herald, writes that “The way the phrase 'Jewish lobby has been bandied about in numerous letters implies there is something inherently sinister in lobbying when Jews do it.”[11] According to Geoffrey Brahm Levey and Philip Mendes, the term is used in Australia as a pejorative description of the way in which the Jewish community influences the Liberal Party “by talking to its leaders and making them aware of Jewish wishes and views”.[12] > > William Safire writes that in the United Kingdom “Jewish lobby” is used as an “even more pejorative” term for “the ‘Israel lobby’”.[13] Michael Lasky describes the term as an “unfortunate phrase”, and “imagines” that Alexander Walker’s use of it while writing about the “Nazi” films of Leni Riefenstahl was not intended pejoratively.[14] > > In 2006 Chris Davies, MEP for the northwest of England was forced to resign as leader of the Liberal Democrats group in the European Parliament[15] after writing to a constituent “I shall denounce the influence of the Jewish lobby that seems to have far too great a say over the political decision-making process in many countries.” In comments to [TotallyJewish.Com](http://TotallyJewish.Com) he “confessed he didn’t know the difference between referring to the ‘pro Israel lobby’ and the ‘Jewish lobby’,” and added “I’m quite prepared to accept that I don’t understand the semantics of some of these things.”[16] Commenting on Davies’ use of the term, The Guardian’s David Hirsh writes Davies “has had to resign because his laudable instinct to side with the underdog was not tempered by care, thought or self-education.” He compared Davies’ rhetoric with the “care to avoid openly antisemitic rhetoric taken by sophisticates like Mearsheimer and Walt and Robert Fisk.” > > A 2007 New York Sun editorial accused Richard Dawkins, a British evolutionary biologist, atheist and writer who is author of The God Delusion, of repeating antisemitic conspiracy theories[17] after he used the term in an interview published in The Guardian. In the interview Dawkins said: “When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see. So if atheists could achieve a small fraction of that influence, the world would be a better place.”[18] In a National Review column discussing the influence of “high-profile atheists” on the American left, Arthur C. Brooks wrote that Dawkins claim was “anti-Semitic, slanders religion, and asserts victimhood.”[19] David Cesarani, commenting in The Guardian, stated that “Mearsheimer and Walt would doubtless chide Dawkins for using the term ‘Jewish lobby’, which they studiously avoid in order to give no truck to anti-Jewish innuendo.”[20] > > Mitchell Bard, director of the non-profit American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise (AICE), writes that: “Reference is often made to the ‘Jewish lobby’ in an effort to describe Jewish influence, but this term is both vague and inadequate. While it is true that American Jews are sometimes represented by lobbyists, such direct efforts to influence policy-makers are but a small part of the lobby’s ability to shape policy.”[21] Bard argues the term Israel lobby is more accurate, because it is comprises both formal and informal elements (which includes public opinion), and “…because a large proportion of the lobby is made up of non-Jews.”[22] > > Harvard University professor Stephen Walt and University of Chicago professor John Mearsheimer, authors of The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, write that while “AIPAC and the Conference of Presidents and the Israeli media themselves refer to America’s ‘Jewish Lobby’”,[23] they themselves “never use the term ‘Jewish lobby’ because the lobby is defined by its political agenda, not by religion or ethnicity.”[24] In a letter to the editor of The New York Times responding to a book review by Leslie Gelb[25], they state: “Gelb refers repeatedly to a ‘Jewish lobby,’ despite the fact that we never employ the term in our book. Indeed, we explicitly rejected this label as inaccurate and misleading, both because the lobby includes non-Jews like the Christian Zionists and because many Jewish Americans do not support the hard-line policies favored by its most powerful elements."[26] In fact, when [serial liars](http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=7&x_issue=35&x_article=1099) like Walt and Mearsheimer say something is inaccurate and misleading… you know it’s got to be pure gold bullshit. Anyways, ciao for now. Since Obama looks like the man to beat, I’ve been selected as the guy who gets to put a horse head in his bed tonight. Bombing of Spain stats just after noon tomorrow. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/78 "2008-06-08T08:03:16Z")
> [@](#): > > **xtisme** : My arguments may suck, they may be unconvincing…but at least I take the time to actually WRITE THEM! Then maybe there’s your problem. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/79 "2008-06-08T08:05:57Z")
[QUOTE=Zoe] Then maybe there’s your problem. [/QUOTE] You forgot to add a vaguely relevant (well, sometimes) link. Keep trying to…it was a valiant effort. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mosier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@Mosier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mosier)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2008, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977/80 "2008-06-08T08:17:47Z")
[QUOTE=xtisme] …touching. Myself [/QUOTE] Heh, heh. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gonzomax-you-are-clueless/451977.md?page=5)