# Good article(s)/site(s) making the pro-Hillary case **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [June 2, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267 "2016-06-02T00:26:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/1 "2016-06-02T00:26:07Z")
I’m embroiled on Facebook with some arguments with friends of mine. Quite a few of them are generally liberal, but are strongly pro-Bernie. And some of them are so pro-Bernie and anti-Hillary that they’re talking about not voting, or voting third party, in the general election (although none of them seem to actually like Trump). I’m generally liberal and waver between Hillary and Bernie, but am firmly in the “Jesus Christ vote for any Democrat in preference to Trump for the love of all that is holy” camp. The problem is that some of them view Hillary as, if not quite as bad as Trump, at least close. So they see a choice between an F and a D- and decide to instead make a protest vote that they hope will have some impact in the future. So I’d like an article that passionately and persuasively makes the pro-Hillary argument… talking about her and her strengths specifically, as opposed to the beat-Trump-at-all-costs argument. Anyone have a link to a particularly good one? ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/2 "2016-06-02T01:41:37Z")
[A place to start (Thomas Friedman in today’s NYC)](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/opinion/politicians-and-the-lies-that-matter.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&referer=http://lm.facebook.com/lsr.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyti.ms%2F1XfBWsF&ext=1464799308&hash=AckYbyGKTBMgg7gq1jOpDK7zOnddNq9IOD1_xE0ika1mqQ&_rdr) ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/3 "2016-06-02T01:47:31Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19364159&postcount=222](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19364159&postcount=222) **Asahi** makes a cogent argument for her in the above link. > [@](#): > > I have problems with a lack of transparency and I have problems with calling campaign contributions “speech”. But I just don’t see the problem with a political candidate who has lots of experience, who has lots of important relationships with people on Wall Street, and who has lots of experience actually sitting on Fortune 500 boards and working in the deepest corridors of the Beltway. To me, I see that as someone who has a very keen sense of who holds the power, and whom to push and whom to pull when they feel like something needs to be done. I see someone in Hillary Clinton who actually understands firsthand what would happen if congress decided overnight to raise minimum wages to $15 per hour. Criticize her Wal-Mart board service all you want, but I’d wager she understands the effects of indiscriminate wage hikes on low wage workers a lot better than Bernie Sanders does. I would wager she has a lot more realistic assessment of how a fight over universal healthcare is going to play out in congress and at the state level than Bernie Sanders does, especially since her very first foray into this issue nearly cost her husband his second term in office and was probably a motivating factor in the endless investigations conducted by Newt Gingrich and Ken Starr. > > It’s absolutely true that experience only doesn’t qualify someone to hold an office. Sometimes experience can be blinding and sometimes people get used to viewing politics through a particular lens. I’d also agree that Hillary has made errors in judgment - some of them serious. But I’d counter that by saying that she’s also had a lot more exposure. Hillary has had her fingerprints on a lot of things over the years in no small part because few people have been as involved in some of the most important decisions as she has. She’s been involved in one way or another in major, major decision-making since 1993. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/4 "2016-06-02T02:43:08Z")
I am wondering this too. The best idea I can come up with is look at her ratings by various liberal organizations. Labor > **[The Voter's Self Defense System](https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton/43)** > > Vote Smart provides free, unbiased, in-depth information about current officials, candidates, issues, legislation, and voting. Non-partisan and nonprofit since 1988. Civil rights > **[The Voter's Self Defense System](https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton/13)** > > Vote Smart provides free, unbiased, in-depth information about current officials, candidates, issues, legislation, and voting. Non-partisan and nonprofit since 1988. Energy > **[The Voter's Self Defense System](https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton/29)** > > Vote Smart provides free, unbiased, in-depth information about current officials, candidates, issues, legislation, and voting. Non-partisan and nonprofit since 1988. Abortion > **[The Voter's Self Defense System](https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton/75)** > > Vote Smart provides free, unbiased, in-depth information about current officials, candidates, issues, legislation, and voting. Non-partisan and nonprofit since 1988. Health care > **[The Voter's Self Defense System](https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton/38)** > > Vote Smart provides free, unbiased, in-depth information about current officials, candidates, issues, legislation, and voting. Non-partisan and nonprofit since 1988. Unemployed and low income advocacy > **[The Voter's Self Defense System](https://justfacts.votesmart.org/candidate/evaluations/55463/hillary-clinton/67)** > > Vote Smart provides free, unbiased, in-depth information about current officials, candidates, issues, legislation, and voting. Non-partisan and nonprofit since 1988. The list goes on. When you get down to brass tacks, Hillary has a fairly progressive record and earns pretty high marks from labor, womens groups, civil rights groups, health care groups, anti-poverty groups. She isn’t perfect, but I don’t see what about her makes her such anathema of the progressive movement. She would make a good president, and far superior to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/f04885/32.png) [@Qin\_Shi\_Huangdi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qin_Shi_Huangdi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/5 "2016-06-02T03:50:13Z")
Read stuff written by Paul Krugman recently. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/6 "2016-06-02T04:04:50Z")
I liked Jann Wenner’s editorial in a recent Rolling Stone: [Hillary Clinton for President – Rolling Stone](http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/hillary-clinton-for-president-20160323) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/7 "2016-06-02T04:23:39Z")
My respect for Wenner just tripled. (And not just because he ends up endorsing Hillary.) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/8 "2016-06-02T05:22:51Z")
Bernie didn’t create the progressive wave he’s riding. Got a nickel says he’s just as surprised as any of us. His astonishing campaign reflects a change in the people, welcome change, to be sure. Gives a lot of political cover to those politicians who would want to support more progressive policies, but also don’t want to lose. As crass as that fact may be, it is important, it is power. And sharing power is what democracy is! Only thing could be better than that is that, _plus_ a solid thumping for the Forces of Darkness. An ice cream sundae with a banana split on top, _and_ a cherry! We can have that. Gotta go along with the majority vote, here, however galling that may be. But the “pot odds” are excellent, we give up one dollar in dignity for ten dollars in progress. \* Hell\*, yes! Pull ourselves together and beat the living snot out of the Republicans. We only have to love each other till November, we can start in arguing again come Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/9 "2016-06-02T05:27:08Z")
It just dawned on me that I was supposed to tell you about something somebody smart wrote, so that somebody else would read it. Well, fuck me. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/10 "2016-06-02T06:11:40Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > [A place to start (Thomas Friedman in today’s NYC)](http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/01/opinion/politicians-and-the-lies-that-matter.html?smid=fb-nytimes&smtyp=cur&referer=http://lm.facebook.com/lsr.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fnyti.ms%2F1XfBWsF&ext=1464799308&hash=AckYbyGKTBMgg7gq1jOpDK7zOnddNq9IOD1_xE0ika1mqQ&_rdr) Unfortunately almost all of that is not really pro-Clinton, it’s strongly anti-Trump and somewhat tepidly anti-Sanders. The Rolling Stone editorial is definitely good, but it still spends most of its time talking tactics and electability, not actually listing Hillary’s specific qualities and accomplishments. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/6bbea6/32.png) [@Johnny\_Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Ace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/11 "2016-06-02T08:47:31Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > The Rolling Stone editorial is definitely good, but it still spends most of its time talking tactics and electability, not actually listing Hillary’s specific qualities and accomplishments. This is the internet age. If you don’t know it by now, you can easily find it. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/12 "2016-06-02T10:01:51Z")
There’s only one pro-Clinton talking point and it’s a good one. If you elect Hillary Clinton, she’ll be a pretty good President, whereas Trump would be an utter disaster. And you can make that case while acknowledging the ethical issues and the fact that she’s got a moderate record and has never been a friend of liberals except on womens’ issues. The only people that won’t convince are the “burn it all down” Bernie supporters. ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 11:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/13 "2016-06-02T11:37:35Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > There’s only one pro-Clinton talking point and it’s a good one. If you elect Hillary Clinton, she’ll be a pretty good President, whereas Trump would be an utter disaster. And you can make that case while acknowledging the ethical issues and the fact that she’s got a moderate record and has never been a friend of liberals except on womens’ issues. > > The only people that won’t convince are the “burn it all down” Bernie supporters. I admit that I’ve been guilty of misunderstanding Bernie voters, but I think I’m beginning to understand them better than I used to – I think anyway. Some of the more extreme #neverHillary voters believe that the electorate as a whole is having a progressive awakening and that Hillary is even worse than a republican because she’s standing in the way of a progressive takeover of a political party that’s supposed to represent progressives: the Democratic party. They believe that if they can just get her out of the way, then they will be on the path to putting more liberal ideas into the mainstream. My view is that the reality is a bit more complicated than that. In some ways, I almost wish Bernie would win just so we could see once and for all how well Bernie would fare once he squares off against a republican and once he gets elected to office. I actually somewhat agree that Bernie could take Trump in a national election. My fear is that he wouldn’t be able to get anything accomplished once in office and he would forever lampoon progressives as being too incompetent to run a lemonade stand. I’m actually somewhat sympathetic to Bernie Bros in terms of their politics, and I’d agree that Bernie’s ideas – some of them anyway – need to be promoted more into the mainstream. I share their concern that Hillary might not do that as aggressively as we’d like, which is one reason I don’t mind Bernie having a major role at the convention and beyond. But you need someone with a 360 degree view of things and I don’t see that in Bernie. So I’m for using Bernie’s energy, and I hope that democrats can use it effectively. I also hope Bernie continues to push his causes in constructive ways (organizing and building a progressive national legislature, and progressive state legislatures, for example) once he’s out of the race. Otherwise, it will have been a wasted effort, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/14 "2016-06-02T11:58:23Z")
I think Bernie voters are completely wrong that we’re on the verge of a progressive awakening, but one thing that I think is true is that we’re in the midst of a political realignment. I just don’t think the end result of that alignment is predictable. Which direction we go in will depend a lot on who governs and how well they govern. I think that as a general rule, if you elect left-wing governments that govern well, the population will tend to prefer left wing governments. And if you elect right-wing governments that govern well, the population will tend to prefer right-wing governments. And so on for moderates as well. Clinton, IMO, is firmly in the moderate camp and she has long believed in the system and making it work for everyone. So if she wins, and she governs well, that will entrench moderation over radical change, which will tend to sideline Bernie supporters even more than they are now. I think the reason some prefer Trump is that Trump shares Bernie’s view of things as far as wanting to make major changes. So a Trump win probably helps Bernie supporters more than a Clinton win. If Trump does well, then even though it’s a victory for Republicans, it’s also a victory for radical change, which is also good for Bernie backers. If Trump does poorly, that’s also good for Bernie backers because they’ll have an opportunity to fight for control of a leaderless Democratic Party in 2020. As a Republican, Trump presents a double problem for me because if he governs poorly it further ruins the Republican brand, and if he governs well, it strengthens his brand of Republicanism. Neither result is good for the agenda I support, so he must never get the chance to govern. And I think a lot of Bernie supporters see just as clearly about Clinton. There can be no good result from her election for a lot of these voters. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/15 "2016-06-02T14:08:47Z")
Have I got this? Bernie’s progressive agenda garners huge and unexpected support. Which indicates a political realignment. Indeed. But you want to tell us that it may very well mean a shift towards the _conservative_? So, if I take a bucket of luke warm water and pour in a bucket of boiling water, it might freeze? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/16 "2016-06-02T14:18:28Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Have I got this? Bernie’s progressive agenda garners huge and unexpected support. Which indicates a political realignment. Indeed. > > But you want to tell us that it may very well mean a shift towards the _conservative_? So, if I take a bucket of luke warm water and pour in a bucket of boiling water, it might freeze? Yuuuuge and unexpected support from Democratic primary voters, who are a small subset of all voters. But I’m not seeing where **adaher** says this signals a shift towards conservative. Looks to me like he’s saying the shift in whatever direction will depend on who wins (shocker!) and how well that winner governs. **asahi** : Very insightful post! And I say that as a Bernie supporter, although not the type you are describing. I have no problems supporting HRC in the general. Well, not “no problems”, but not enough to stop me from doing so. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/17 "2016-06-02T14:52:05Z")
So, the shift in the electorate occurs _because_ of the election? As a _result_? The egg lays the chicken? ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2016, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/18 "2016-06-02T15:29:55Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > So, the shift in the electorate occurs _because_ of the election? As a _result_? The egg lays the chicken? Sometimes. Politics is like physics, for each action there is an opposite and equal reaction, except leave out the equal part - sometimes the reaction is all out of proportion. Its one of the reasons the moderates like moderation and think incremental politics is wise unless you are in a crisis - like the Great Depression or the Civil War - when decisive action is necessary. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/19 "2016-06-03T20:24:56Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > I think Bernie voters are completely wrong that we’re on the verge of a progressive awakening, but one thing that I think is true is that we’re in the midst of a political realignment. I just don’t think the end result of that alignment is predictable. Which direction we go in will depend a lot on who governs and how well they govern. I think that as a general rule, if you elect left-wing governments that govern well, the population will tend to prefer left wing governments. And if you elect right-wing governments that govern well, the population will tend to prefer right-wing governments. And so on for moderates as well. Clinton, IMO, is firmly in the moderate camp and she has long believed in the system and making it work for everyone. So if she wins, and she governs well, that will entrench moderation over radical change, which will tend to sideline Bernie supporters even more than they are now. I think the reason some prefer Trump is that Trump shares Bernie’s view of things as far as wanting to make major changes. So a Trump win probably helps Bernie supporters more than a Clinton win. If Trump does well, then even though it’s a victory for Republicans, it’s also a victory for radical change, which is also good for Bernie backers. If Trump does poorly, that’s also good for Bernie backers because they’ll have an opportunity to fight for control of a leaderless Democratic Party in 2020. > > As a Republican, Trump presents a double problem for me because if he governs poorly it further ruins the Republican brand, and if he governs well, it strengthens his brand of Republicanism. Neither result is good for the agenda I support, so he must never get the chance to govern. And I think a lot of Bernie supporters see just as clearly about Clinton. There can be no good result from her election for a lot of these voters. The current progressive movement is born out of a need for political solutions to multiple problems. Expensive, unreliable health care Lack of jobs that pay a living wage Income inequality and income stagnation for the masses Regulatory capture of government by private interests Climate change Etc. Unless one or the other party actually solves those issues, the energy behind people like Bernie will still be there looking for an outlet. The problem is the gop doesn’t even consider them problems while the Democrats realize they are problems, but they don’t want to solve them since they’d have to anger the rich and powerful in the process. So nothing meaningful gets done (except climate change, but that is mostly private interests solving that). The progressive movement will get bigger until these things get fixed. Honestly, even Trump is mostly doing well because of these issues. He speaks out against income inequality and regulatory cspturem ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2016, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267/20 "2016-06-03T20:31:59Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The current progressive movement is born out of a need for political solutions to multiple problems. > > Expensive, unreliable health care > Lack of jobs that pay a living wage > Income inequality and income stagnation for the masses > Regulatory capture of government by private interests > Climate change > > Etc. Unless one or the other party actually solves those issues, the energy behind people like Bernie will still be there looking for an outlet. The problem is the gop doesn’t even consider them problems while the Democrats realize they are problems, but they don’t want to solve them since they’d have to anger the rich and powerful in the process. So nothing meaningful gets done (except climate change, but that is mostly private interests solving that). > > The progressive movement will get bigger until these things get fixed. > > Honestly, even Trump is mostly doing well because of these issues. He speaks out against income inequality and regulatory cspturem Agreed. I think we’re finally moving past the Reagan era, and not a moment too soon. The demographics seem to be favoring a far more progressive American electorate in the years ahead, and the Republicans are now resorting to their last straw: vote suppression and trying to find holes in the political system to rig it indefinitely. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-article-s-site-s-making-the-pro-hillary-case/756267.md?page=2)