# Good book to give a hard-core Christian about atheism, etc.? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 25, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625 "2008-12-25T05:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BornOfStardust](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bc8723/32.png) [@BornOfStardust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BornOfStardust)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/1 "2008-12-25T05:14:54Z")
I’m having a debate with a pretty hard-nosed conservative Christian, mostly about Prop 8. She wants me to read “The Case for Christ” and says she’s willing to read something from my side. What’s a good book that advocates atheistic thought, or even more liberal religious thought, that might not completely turn her off? I was thinking of Christopher Hitchens’s “God is Not Great,” but he’s such an asshole to religion in that book that I can see it being an unfriendly experience… ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/2 "2008-12-25T05:54:21Z")
Not really an answer to your question, but to lay out my personal suggestion: There’s no harm in believing in a deity. What is harmful is accepting dogma without any sort of introspection–especially when that dogma is quite subjective and any other number of interpretations are out there to be had within the religion itself. Blocking people’s marriage is harmful. Believing in the tooth fairy isn’t. Now, recently, there was a thread asking which denomination or faith would probably most closely match Jesus’ teaching. The answer which seemed to be the most popular was Quakerism. > **[If Jesus came back today, which religion would he most identify with?](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=478075)** > > The other day, I was having a discussion with two buddies of mine, both of whom happen to be christian (one catholic, one protestant), when this subject came up. They seemed a little peeved with me(as an agnostic) for suggesting that if Jesus were to... > **[Quakers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quaker)** > > Quakers are people who belong to the Religious Society of Friends, a historically Protestant Christian set of denominations. Members of these movements ("the Friends") are generally united by a belief in each human's ability to experience the light within or "answering that of God in every one". Some profess a priesthood of all believers inspired by the First Epistle of Peter. They include those with evangelical, holiness, liberal, and traditional Quaker understandings of Christian Some 89% of... Since Quakers are more focused just on trying to live up to what makes sense according to The Golden Rule (and other messages of Christ) rather than dogma, introspection and rationality are quite prized. Yet it is still a Christian faith (principally.) You might do better to give her a book that argues Quakerism than Atheism. All that said, all I know of Quakerism comes from the Wikipedia article. YMMV 😉 ETA: You could also jump right to [Thomas Paine](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Age_of_Reason) and deism. ---
**Author:** ![Vox\_Imperatoris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Vox\_Imperatoris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vox_Imperatoris)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/3 "2008-12-25T07:32:20Z")
Reading about Quakerism (and more generally realizing the fact that I don’t actually like the stuff Christ taught) was why I left Christianity, so maybe that \*is \*a good idea. Valete, Vox Imperatoris ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/4 "2008-12-25T07:48:52Z")
FWIW, speaking as a Christian: none of the evangelical atheists (Hitchens, Sam Harris, the other guy I can’t think of) come close to challenging my faith. They all sound like they’re grinding personal axes, IMO. What does challenge my faith is reading someone who simply trying to explain some part of the universe, and is doing so from an atheistic worldview. Steven Pinker’s writing on human nature (Blank Slate, etc) leaps to mind, but there are others. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/5 "2008-12-25T08:03:39Z")
I’d give her Carl Sagan’s _Demon-Haunted World_. It’s not precisely an argument for atheism, but it’s an introduction to critical thought. _The Bible Unearthed_ might be good too. As far as the frontal atheists, Dawkins’ _The God Delusion_ is as well put together as any, but she probably won’t read it. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/6 "2008-12-25T08:09:34Z")
Sagan definitely is better than Hitchens or Harris. He doesn’t make the issue personal. I read Paine’s “Age of Reason” in college & thought that any Sunday-school kid who actually paid attention could smash that like a pinata’. I recommend C.S. Lewis or even Ian Wilson’s “Jesus: The Evidence” over Lee Strobel for the Christian side. I really need to check Bishop N. T. Wright. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 9:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/7 "2008-12-25T09:10:35Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > I read Paine’s “Age of Reason” in college & thought that any Sunday-school kid who actually paid attention could smash that like a pinata’. Haven’t read it, so I couldn’t say. But it seems reasonable that a book which is, perhaps less intellectual, but has mass market appeal is going to be the one which does better. I.e. 90% of everyone didn’t pay attention in Sunday school and probably would find any serious discussion boring. The stupider, blingiest argument will convert more people than the best. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/8 "2008-12-25T09:35:50Z")
Give him the CD or DVD for Julia Sweeneys’ hilarious monologue "[Letting go of God"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letting_Go_of_God#Letting_Go_of_God). ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/9 "2008-12-25T12:34:29Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’d give her Carl Sagan’s _Demon-Haunted World_. It’s not precisely an argument for atheism, but it’s an introduction to critical thought. Michael Shermer’s “Why We Believe” is similar - and it isn’t judgmental about belief or non-belief. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/10 "2008-12-25T12:51:43Z")
I doubt that any book would change the person’s thinking,their believe seems necessary to them and will always look for something to hold on to their belief. All books are written by humans and so it all amounts to what human you choose to believe. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/11 "2008-12-25T13:40:36Z")
I exchanged Dawkins’ book with my hostess, a woman who’d been married to an Episcopal priests and had three sons with him who grew up to become priests as well, who gave me the Wilson book that **Friar Ted** mentioned. I read her book (no idea if she read mine) and I’m sure she discounted everything Dawkins had to say, as she was busily denouncing it even as she thanked me for giving it to her. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/12 "2008-12-25T13:55:48Z")
Well, while not exactly a book on atheism if you want to try a middle-of-the-road approach I think [Finding Darwin’s God: A Scientist’s Search for Common Ground Between God and Evolution](http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins-God-Scientists-Evolution/dp/0060930497) might be worthwhile (although Dawkins maintains a good understanding and belief in evolution leads one inexorably to atheism…not so sure I buy that argument but he makes it). The author initially thoroughly smashes creationist dogma and soundly supports evolution. However, in the later half of the book he turns on scientists who say there is no place for god and supports ideas of faith and where god can fit in. To diehard evangelical christian types I think this may be a better approach at softening their dogma ridden lives. A Hitchen’s book will throw up their defenses ASAP and they will never allow their minds to be changed. In fact, for a serious bible-thumper type you might want to have them read the second half of the book above first so they understand the author is not overall anti-religion (indeed the author is a committed christian himself). Once the groundwork is laid then perhaps they can tackle the likes of Dawkins or Hitchens with a more open mind. ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/13 "2008-12-25T16:39:02Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Give him the CD or DVD for Julia Sweeneys’ hilarious monologue "[Letting go of God"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letting_Go_of_God#Letting_Go_of_God). I second this suggestion, as well as Sagan’s ‘Demon Haunted World’. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/14 "2008-12-25T17:15:19Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I’d give her Carl Sagan’s _Demon-Haunted World_. It’s not precisely an argument for atheism, but it’s an introduction to critical thought. > > _The Bible Unearthed_ might be good too. > > As far as the frontal atheists, Dawkins’ _The God Delusion_ is as well put together as any, but she probably won’t read it. I think those are about the best suggestions on the subject, and I agree that Dawkins will just put the person too much on the defensive to do any good. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/15 "2008-12-25T17:19:58Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > (although Dawkins maintains a good understanding and belief in evolution leads one inexorably to atheism…not so sure I buy that argument but he makes it). This Weak Atheist would be thrilled to pieces if a Fundamentalist Christian converted to [Deism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deist). The main thing I’d like to convert people to is critical thinking. The problem I have with religion is that it makes people shut off their brains. When they hear an argument that contradicts The One True Dogma it may appear that they’re listening to you, but mentally they are putting their fingers in their ears and internally humming “LA LA LA I CAN’T HEAR YOU”… That, more than anything, is what bugs me about “faith.” ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2008, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/16 "2008-12-25T17:38:25Z")
I was thinking maybe some Stephen J. Gould. Bully for Brontosaurus? ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/17 "2008-12-26T15:45:24Z")
I highly recommend [The Reason Drive Life,](http://www.amazon.com/Reason-Driven-Life-What-Earth/dp/1591024765) a direct counterargument to Rick Warren’s The Purpose Driven Life. It’s written by a former evangelical Baptist minister, and he has a lovely, sympathetic way of addressing hardcore Christians and calling Warren not only on his lack of reason, but also on his poor theology. I think this is a much better approach if you want a dedicated Christian to actually pay attention. Dawkins and especially Hitchens are a big fat no-no, if you want your friend to keep an open mind. ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/18 "2008-12-26T16:56:15Z")
If you have I-tunes go to the Podcast The Way of Reason (Infidel Guy) and download episodes (they are free) that feature “The Bible Geek” aka Robert Price. He is fantastic and you will never look at the Bible in the same way again, ever! Price loves the bible but treats it as one would any other ancient text, this is the first step towards understanding atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/bc8723/32.png) [@Unauthorized\_Cinnamon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unauthorized_Cinnamon)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/19 "2008-12-26T18:03:10Z")
Robert Price is also the author of The Reason Driven Life, funnily enough. (And yes, that’s The Reason DriveN Life - I swear I didn’t even have alcohol at the party yesterday!) ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2008, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625/20 "2008-12-26T22:14:28Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > Give him the CD or DVD for Julia Sweeneys’ hilarious monologue "[Letting go of God"](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letting_Go_of_God#Letting_Go_of_God). I agree that this is enormously entertaining, but it’s more of a personal memoir of enlightenment than an argument in favor of it. In other words, it’s a reminiscence of an individual experience, and as such, I would recommend you take a look at it yourself before handing it over to anybody, to see how much it reflects your own point of view. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-book-to-give-a-hard-core-christian-about-atheism-etc/478625.md?page=2)