# Good books on alternative history? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [May 16, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686 "2009-05-16T23:28:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/1 "2009-05-16T23:28:45Z")
Alternative history as in how would things have changed if X had['nt] happened. Does anyone know of books on that theme that are worth a read? ---
**Author:** ![Claire\_Beauchamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ec9cab/32.png) [@Claire\_Beauchamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Claire_Beauchamp)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/2 "2009-05-16T23:42:01Z")
_They Years of Rice and Salt_ is the only book like that I think I’ve read. It is not only an alternative history – what the world would be like if the Black Death had really wiped out Europe to the point it didn’t recover, and Arab & Asian cultures dominated – but also has characters that are reincarnated throughout history. ---
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/3 "2009-05-17T00:22:07Z")
Keep in mind that there are two broad categories of alternate history. The first is “How could such-and-such happened.” In this category you will find many books along the line of How the South could have won the Civil War, How the Germans could have won World War II, How could the Chinese colonized the American continent before Columbus got here, etc. The second is “What would have been the result if such-and-such happened?” In this category you will find books like "What would the U.S. be like in 2009 if the South had won the Civil War? What would the world be like in 2009 if the Germans had won World War II? What would the world be like in 2009 if the Chinese had colonized the American continent before Columbus got here? I much prefer the latter. Among books I recomend are Ward Moore’s _Bring The Jubilee_ (The South won the Civil War), Robert Sobel’s \*For Want Of A Nail \*(the American revolution fails and the colonies remain British for a hundred more years), Norman Longmate’s _If Britain Had F\*\*allen_ (the Germans occupy England in the 1940s, and Robert Harris’ _Fatherlan_d (!964 Berlin, 20 years after the Germans win World War II. These would be a good start for books in the second category. ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/4 "2009-05-17T00:26:34Z")
[S.M. Stirling](http://www.smstirling.com/) comes in for a lot of flack for his Draka series, but I liked it. _Under The Yoke_ scared me in much the same was as Orwell’s _1984_ did. Also, his Island series (_Island in the Sea of Time, Against the Tide of Years, On the Oceans of Eternity_) is good, and its compaion series, known as The Emberverse (_Dies The Fire, The Protector’s War, A Meeting At Corvallis_) was enjoyable. He has some one-offs (_The Peshawar Lancers, Conquistador_) that stand out, too. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/5 "2009-05-17T01:12:41Z")
You might want to check out Peter Tsouras, although he fits the first of **Ronald C Simone** ’s categories: Cold War Hot: Alternate Decisions of the Cold War Dixie Victorious: An Alternate History of the Civil War Rising Sun Victorious: The Alternate History of how the Japanese won the Pacific War Third Reich Victorious: Alternate Decisions of World War II. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/6 "2009-05-17T02:19:25Z")
If you want an exhaustive list, check out the [Uchronia](http://www.uchronia.net/) website. It mentions pretty much every alternate history work that’s been published in English. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/7 "2009-05-17T03:26:00Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > [S.M. Stirling](http://www.smstirling.com/) comes in for a lot of flack for his Draka series, but I liked it. _Under The Yoke_ scared me in much the same was as Orwell’s _1984_ did. > > Also, his Island series (_Island in the Sea of Time, Against the Tide of Years, On the Oceans of Eternity_) is good, and its compaion series, known as The Emberverse (_Dies The Fire, The Protector’s War, A Meeting At Corvallis_) was enjoyable. He has some one-offs (_The Peshawar Lancers, Conquistador_) that stand out, too. I don’t think you can classify those as alternative history though. I enjoy the books also, but they are more fantasy than anything. When I think of alt. history I think of For Want of a Nail and the What If? series of books. The “Decades of Darkness” story is also a good one (you can find that one on the alternative history forum. Really good read). With what I listed above the writer talks about events that actually could have happened. No “alien space-bats.” ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/8 "2009-05-17T05:35:42Z")
If you want some light, amusing reading, the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik are entertaining. It’s a What If scenario - What if Napoleon had _dragons_? ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/9 "2009-05-17T12:04:42Z")
> [@Claire\_Beauchamp](#): > > _They Years of Rice and Salt_ is the only book like that I think I’ve read. It is not only an alternative history – what the world would be like if the Black Death had really wiped out Europe to the point it didn’t recover, and Arab & Asian cultures dominated – **but also has characters that are reincarnated throughout history.** Which pretty much removes it from the A/H category, truth be told… ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/10 "2009-05-17T14:07:47Z")
Thanks, everyone. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/11 "2009-05-17T14:37:46Z")
What specific area of history are you most interested in? My favorite is Harry Turtledove’s 11 book series on what would have happened if Lee hadn’t lost his Special Orders 191, thereby winning on his first invasion of the north, causing the south to win the Civil War. The series follows this new timeline through WWI and WWII. Excellent series, IMHO… ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/12 "2009-05-17T15:07:47Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Which pretty much removes it from the A/H category, truth be told… The background of _Years of Rice & Salt_ is classic alternative history: what would have happened if The Black Death had killed 99% of Europe? The “reincarnation” bit is part of the ongoing story but not essential to showing how that world might develop. Too stringent an insistence on “categories” will leave you stranded in a Flock of Turtledoves.\*\* All of this stuff is only fiction!\*\* S M Stirling’s **Emberverse** series is on the cusp of categories. The Thing That Caused The Change was very odd, indeed (& still unexplained)–but the changed world we see could still be extrapolated from our own. (And its twin, the **Nantucket Series** , doesn’t fit the “strict” definition, either. But it’s still Having Fun With History.) The series has begun to drag a bit; while I’ll continue, I will wait for the paperback editions. I still love him for \*The Peshawar Lancers \*. And the most wonderful **Lords of Creation** series–two books about that alternative Solar System are not enough. My own favorite alternative history? Philip K Dick’s **The Man In the High Castle**. Definitely a classic–but some of the characters consult the _I Ching_. Anyone who says the author is easily categorized Doesn’t Know Dick. For a bit of that Fun I mentioned, you can read David Brin’s “Thor Meets Captain America” [right here](http://www.davidbrin.com/thor1.htm)! ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/13 "2009-05-17T16:32:14Z")
Yes, but (IIRC) the YOR&S reincarnated spirits were shown to be _guiding_ historical development and were not merely people to whom things happened. Once that element was entered into the story, it stopped being A/H and instead became fantasy/science-fiction. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/14 "2009-05-17T16:45:24Z")
If you don’t mind the alien space bats, **1632** by Eric Flint. The town of Grantville, West Virginia is sent from the year 2000 to Germany 1631. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/15 "2009-05-17T18:22:21Z")
What I use to figure out if it is really AH or fantasy is if it is something that could have happened. Lee’s orders could not have been lost. The American’s could have lost the Revolution. Hitler could have won WWII. Alexander the Great could have died in one of the battles he fought. AH takes things that are plausible and extrapolates from there. A city going back in time: fantasy. The laws of physics changing in a flash: fantasy. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but it is in its own separate category. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/16 "2009-05-17T18:55:25Z")
> [@RandMcnally](#): > > What I use to figure out if it is really AH or fantasy is if it is something that could have happened. Lee’s orders could not have been lost. The American’s could have lost the Revolution. Hitler could have won WWII. Alexander the Great could have died in one of the battles he fought. > > AH takes things that are plausible and extrapolates from there. A city going back in time: fantasy. The laws of physics changing in a flash: fantasy. Not that there’s anything wrong with it, but it is in its own separate category. Some of us enjoy stories that include alternative history along with other elements. Like fantasy, humor or non-cardboard characters. ---
**Author:** ![RandMcnally](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b782af/32.png) [@RandMcnally](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RandMcnally)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/17 "2009-05-17T20:58:55Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Some of us enjoy stories that include alternative history along with other elements. Like fantasy, humor or non-cardboard characters. Don’t get me wrong, I do to. I guess we’ll need more info from the OP as to what he is looking for. Is he looking for real AH/counter-factual history, or more fantasy? Either way [here](http://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/) is a good message board and [here](http://www.alternatehistory.com/decadesofdarkness/) is a really good counter-factual history. Here is the synopsis: > [@](#): > > But in this alternate history, Jefferson dies and his successors keep up the Embargo Act for a while longer. This leads to the secession of New England, supported by the United Kingdom, and to a civil war where New England gains its independence. There is now a rump-United States where the slaveholding states hold the power, and a small but wealthy and heavily industrialised Republic of New England which follows its own path of development. The Decades of Darkness traces the history of these two nations, and the rest of the world, as it takes a very different path to the events of our history. ---
**Author:** ![Markxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@Markxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Markxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/18 "2009-05-17T21:49:23Z")
It’s not a book (obviously) but you might want to check out Google Groups. Usenet has really good alternate history groups (of course now they are spammed to death) but in the late 90s early 00s they were excellent reading. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/19 "2009-05-17T22:07:49Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > I still love him for \*The Peshawar Lancers \*. He really needs to write a sequel to this. Too many loose threads that could be addressed, in a fascinating universe. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686/20 "2009-05-17T22:10:24Z")
Well, _Quis Custodiet_, for which I got the Pulitzer, is arguably the best alternate-history book ever. Unfortunately, this is not the universe I produced it in. 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-books-on-alternative-history/496686.md?page=2)