# Good, but 2nd-tier, rock guitarists vs. guitar legends ... what separates them? **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 8, 2003, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318 "2003-01-08T16:19:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/21 "2003-01-09T00:46:28Z")
My sense of the difference would go like this 2nd Tier: Moderate to high technical skills, rudimentary knowledge of musical theory, lack of curiosity, little experimentation. 1st tier: Moderate to high technical skills, good to excellent knowledge of musical theory, curious, eager to experiment. This would apply to the kinds of guitarists I like, not necessarily to all “guitar heroes.” I think this works for Eddie van Halen, Jimi Hendrix, John McLaughlin, Joe Satriani. I don’t think of Eric Clapton as very adventurous, but he is sure 'nuff a guitar hero. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/22 "2003-01-09T00:54:12Z")
I think Clapton is anomolous in the guitar god tradition because he is not technically flashy (at least, not after Cream). What he has is a phenomenal sense of touch and feel. His solos are almost sung rather than played. ---
**Author:** ![da\_pope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@da\_pope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/da_pope)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/23 "2003-01-09T02:43:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*I think Clapton is anomolous in the guitar god tradition because he is not technically flashy (at least, not after Cream). What he has is a phenomenal sense of touch and feel. His solos are almost sung rather than played. \*\* well put, and I heartily agree. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/24 "2003-01-09T03:09:30Z")
Jeez, I am a little disappointed in some of these responses. “Lightening Fast Solos?” - gimme a break. “Stage Antics?” “Marketing?” - please. **Dostromin** is starting to get there by citing innovation. Near as I figure it, what makes a guitar hero is, in no particular order: - Innovation - as **Dostromin** stated, it matters, but is not the only thing. And regardless of what individual posters, including me, think, people like Hendrix, Clapton, Van Halen, SRV, etc. were most assuredly innovative in the public’s eyes. Did Hendrix (and SRV) play Albert King? Hell yes - musical evolution is all about taking from others and adding to it. It’s _how_ they played Albert King that was different - Hendrix played with a rock rhythm section and played rock songs. And he was younger and stylish and had fortunate timing to be a black musician playing the blues in 60’s America (breaking wide in the UK, which was more open to black musicians crossing over at the time). Van Halen played technically innovative power pop, ushering in Hair Metal (but not really being “of” hair metal). Clapton made white boy blues acceptable and branched into a fusion-y sort of pop/blues/psychedelia with Cream, the first Super Group, which was also an innovation. And Page, along with Sabbath and a few others, created heavy metal. You may not agree or like it, but that is how history is written. - Technique - The players are either technically virtuous across the board, masters within a specific genre, or just do something new or especially well - look at the Edge, one of the most innovative guitar heroes - can’t do all that much, but no one sounds like him and what he does he does incredibly well. But, as can be seen by the countless virtuosos who _aren’t_ top tier heroes that technique is a fraction of the issue. Lightning fast solos. Jeez, with the exception of Van Halen, most heroes are known for lightning fast. Hendrix isn’t known for fast and Clapton’s nickname is “Fasthand”? - Style/Cross-over appeal - hey, marketing matters, and innovative clothes, style, front men or whatever all matter and add to the mystique, or whatever. - Ego - along with style, the player has to be arrogant and competitive and want to make sure people notice them and their innovative, technical guitar playing outside of just the band. I think that is what kept Brian May back. He clearly has everything else, but is a soft-spoken, non-arrogant guy content to be part of the band and let Freddie be Freddie. Eddie was never content letting Dave run the whole thing. - _SONGS_ - the songs, people, the songs. This is key. It is what separates Hendrix, Clapton or Van Halen from Malmsteen or Barre. The songs the 1st tier heroes play on have crossed over into the public consciousness. Does it matter that you, or I, think that the songs are good or stink? NO! “All Along the Watchtower”, “Purple Haze” and “Foxy Lady” matter more to the general public than “Aqualung” and “Cross eyed Mary”. Period. And Hendrix had a lot more that just those. Are"Runnin’ with the Devil" or “Eruption” or “Dance the Night Away” good songs? I don’t know, but I do know that they were THE soundtrack of the late 70’s early 80’s. Add to that the fact that an innovative, technically strong, stylish, front-manned, egotistical guitarist who wrote other catchy songs was involved and you have the makings of a top tier guitar hero. Knopfler never had the teeny bopper cross over compared to the other top tiers (maybe Money for Nothing) but I think an argument could be made that he is in the top tier-and-a-half. My $.02 ---
**Author:** ![HeatMiser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ecd19e/32.png) [@HeatMiser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HeatMiser)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/25 "2003-01-09T04:02:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Boo Boo Foo \* > **Also, yes, it’s generally agreed left, right, and centre that Jimmy Page was notoriously sloppy - especially if he’d been on the drugs for a while and hadn’t been practising - HOWEVER - there can be no denying that John Bonham and John Paul Jones were amongst the best “engine rooms” in the business - like EVAH!** I’d agree, and have some other things to add if you don’t mind… Based on listening to a few live performances and viewing _The Song Remains The Same_ concert movie, it seems like the extended showcase pieces in concert (Dazed And Confused being perhaps the iconic example) were constructed from individual parts which were almost certainly pre-rehearsed, but not necessarily in any particular order; the arrangements varied from performance to performance, with Page leading the way, improvising transitions as the spirit moved him, with Jones and Bonham following in turn. In the movie you can almost see the wheels turning in Bonham’s head a couple of times as he seems to be listening, then catching the gist of the direction Page is headed, then catching Jones’ eye to make sure everybody is on the same, um, page. Maybe I’m attaching more significance to this than is really necessary, but I find it very impressive if Bonham and Jones were doing this on a nightly basis. I’d also like to add that a frequently unnoticed part of Page’s talent was in his guitar arrangements. These days complex layered arrangements are common to the point of being mundane, but at the time his technique of layering multiple complementary rhythm guitar parts was fairly new and Page had a fantastic ear for it. I’m not sure how much that skill contributes to “legend-dom”, but it certainly was a large part of the band’s sound and I thought it deserved mention. As to the original question, I think the “right place at the right time” factor cannot be over-emphasized. Among all the extremely talented guitarists throughout the history of modern music, some have certainly sought the spotlight more than others, and some were perhaps more flamboyant showmen than others, but I believe an equally significant factor lies in the ebb and flow of musical tastes; sometimes the world appreciates singularly talented artists, sometimes it doesn’t. Sometimes a “shred” guitarist will take the world by storm, then the world decides it prefers more unified band efforts. Or punk. Or some other style that eschews guitar solos. And so a cycle continues. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/26 "2003-01-09T07:20:12Z")
The ability to draw emotion out of your instrument. Eric Clapton has it. Yngwie doesn’t. Stevie Ray Vaughan had it, and it bled from Robert Johnson’s fingers. For modern rock guitarists who are best known for their expression rather than flash, I’d have to nominate Slash. Some of his solos for G n’ R are hauntingly memorable despite not being particularly fast. Clapton does the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Keith\_Berry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/22d042/32.png) [@Keith\_Berry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keith_Berry)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 9:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/27 "2003-01-09T09:16:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Banger \* > \*\*One of my favorite guitarists is **Bob Mould** from **Hüsker Dü** and **Sugar**. While he’s not considered a guitar legend, he was very influential in creating that “wall of sound” type guitar sound copied by many loud “alternative” bands, including the **Pixies** , **Nirvana** and **Smashing Pumpkins**. \*\* I’ll second that. God only knows how many bands ripped off **Husker Du** ’s style. I’m more inclined to give props to guitar players who make a decent attempt at forging their own style rather than just playing 300 notes a minute. I guess as a non-musician, it’s hard for me to appreciate technical prowess, and easier for me to appreciate distinctive playing styles and songwriting. Certainly all of those hard-rock/metal guitarists like Malmsteen and Steve Vai just bore the living shit out of me. A couple of guitarists who illustrate this are Kim Thayil of the now-defunct **Soundgarden** and Tom Morello of the also-defunct **Rage Against The Machine**. Neither were/are groundbreaking or could be considered virtuosos, but both have a interesting and memorable playing style and have influenced a lot of other players. ---
**Author:** ![li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/2bfe46/32.png) [@li\_l\_Dickie\_Dirtz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/li_l_Dickie_Dirtz)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/28 "2003-01-09T13:22:42Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by WordMan_ > Hendrix isn’t known for fast and Clapton’s nickname is “Fasthand”? My understanding of his nickname, backed up by [this](http://modena.intergate.ca/personal/twokids/folders/slowhand.htm) website, is that “Slowhand” refers to the slow-handed clapping audiences did waiting for him to restring his guitar after breaking strings from excessive bending rather than any speed or lack thereof in his playing. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/29 "2003-01-09T14:50:37Z")
**WordMan** and others – thanks for your well-thought-out responses. WM, I must disagree a little on your reckoning of the popularity of some of Tull’s songs versus some of Van Halen’s. As Van Halen’s zenith coincided with my school days, I, too, have a more contemporary memory of VH’s work than of Jethro Tull’s. However, Tull songs like “Aqualung” and “Thick as a Brick”, _et al_, are hardly dead and buried … at least on local radio. YMMV by locale. ---
**Author:** ![metroshane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@metroshane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/metroshane)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/30 "2003-01-09T16:35:09Z")
Don’t forget Jethro Tull won the first Heavy Metal Grammy. My biggest problem is most guitar hero’s are usually the guys that deserve it the least…For every guitar hero here,with all their “innovations” I can point to the guy that did it first and probably better. That in itself isn’t so bad…but most of the guys walk around like they invented guitar or something. That pisses me off. Take Brian Setzer for example…sure he’s a derivative from Gallup, Mavis, Adkins, Cochran etc…but he’s taken the best part of their styles and has been a true gentleman about paying tribute to those guys…giving them credit whenever possible. And when you think about it…most of the second tier players are actually better than thier god-like peers. It’s just that they are humble enough to give everything to the song…not the solo. ---
**Author:** ![syncrolecyne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f08c70/32.png) [@syncrolecyne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/syncrolecyne)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/31 "2003-01-09T16:53:43Z")
I think for a lot of non-technicaly inclined fans, coming up with many identifiable riffs also has an impact. Chuck Berry Keith Richard(s) Jimmy Page Joe Perry Angus and Malcolm Young While those players were not as groundbreaking (except for Berry), you would know them the second you heard them play. ---
**Author:** ![metroshane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@metroshane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/metroshane)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/32 "2003-01-09T17:05:19Z")
\>\>While those players were not as groundbreaking (except for Berry), you would know them the second you heard them play. Just for shits and grins…although Berry is undoubtably essential in the book of rock and roll…Goree Carter played the signature Berry lick in 1947…and he stole it from Carl Hogan in 1946 playing on Louis Jordan’s Just like a woman" …and that’s not to mention T-bone Walker. There is so much great guitar work out their if folks’ll just look for it. Not that I don’t like the other guys mentioned…in fact, I like most all of them, but let’s give credit where credit is due. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2003, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/33 "2003-01-09T17:09:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by metroshane \* > \*\*Don’t forget Jethro Tull won the first Heavy Metal Grammy. > \*\* Correction, Jethro Tull stole the first Heavy Metal Grammy from Metallica’s **…And Justice for All**. 😃 As for what separates great guitar players from the Guitar Gods, it’s all about how memorable and instantly recognizable their style and songs are. ---
**Author:** ![metroshane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/aeb1de/32.png) [@metroshane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/metroshane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/34 "2003-01-10T16:31:59Z")
Warning: thread killer at large 8) ---
**Author:** ![Tree\_Boy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9dc877/32.png) [@Tree\_Boy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tree_Boy)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/35 "2003-01-10T20:38:12Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by av8rmike \* > \*\*"However, Nuno Bettencourt of Extreme[sup]_[/sup] and John Petrucci of Dream Theater are two of the most “virtuosic” guitarists I can think of > > [sup]\*- OK, I know anyone who was in middle school in the early 90’s knows “More than Words,” but that’s hardly a showcase of his talents…[/sup] \*\* I think Bettencourt’s solo from _Play With Me_ is incredible and does a better job of showing how talented he is. The way he moves up and down the neck so seamlessly is beyond my comprehension. As an aside, Billy Corgan may not be as technically gifted as many of the names mentioned already, but his songwriting skills are right up there with the best, especially considering the time period when it seems like almost everything has “been done.” ---
**Author:** ![Frida\_s\_Boss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@Frida\_s\_Boss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frida_s_Boss)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/36 "2003-02-03T21:41:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > \*\*I’ve always enjoyed Styx’s guitar work on their late '70s albums … and it is silly to laud Shaw without praising James Young. Young did in fact play plenty of lead guitar for Styx. Thanks for the reminder. > > The trick for me, though, is figuring out who played lead on what Styx song. My understanding is that Shaw got more lead work than Young upon joining the band, but that Shaw’s role was diminished over time. \*\* Styx has continued pumping out albums, they have one coming out in mid february. do either of you know how their new stuff has been? I had lost touch with them until recently… i have heard some of their newest singles, and the guitar work is as good as any, however, i dont know anything about what has come in between. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/37 "2003-02-03T22:16:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Frida’s\_Boss \* > \*\*Styx has continued pumping out albums, they have one coming out in mid february. do either of you know how their new stuff has been? I had lost touch with them until recently… i have heard some of their newest singles, and the guitar work is as good as any, however, i dont know anything about what has come in between. \*\* I haven’t listened to any of their stuff over the last ten years. Usually, I just recycle through old music that I like … I haven’t got very innovative tastes. ---
**Author:** ![Frida\_s\_Boss](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@Frida\_s\_Boss](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frida_s_Boss)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/38 "2003-02-07T18:00:07Z")
you should check this out if you still occasionaly listen to thier old stuff. it is an [ecard](http://209.68.43.56/ecards/styx/) or something like that. it is a link to a promo site for their new album. you can listen to their new singles. i think you will be plesantly surprised. Who’s frida?..My secretary ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2003, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/39 "2003-02-07T18:53:39Z")
I just had to come in here and say that it warms my heart to see people praising Tommy Shaw. I adore him. I think he’s not only a fantastic guitarist, but a great writer with a smooth warm voice that has a great range. Is he a legend? Hardly. Just a really great musician. The new Styx album was available to listen to via Real Audio stream and it sounds good. Its getting nice reviews too. I did see no one mentioned Neal Schon. Now he is a rock god to me… quit school at 15 to play with Santana, and that wasn’t his only offer. He turned down Clapton’s offer to tour because it’d take him out of the country and he wasn’t ready to do that so young. I’m straying off topic… but I think its been said already. The difference between great and legend is a matter of how history remembers you. Did you do innovative things? Were you a real interesting personality? Talent only has so much to do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Righteous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Dr.Righteous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Righteous)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318/40 "2003-02-08T00:55:39Z")
Oh, I forgot to add this: Often in Styx the guy who wrote the song is the one who sings it, and he’s also the one who gets the giutar solo. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-but-2nd-tier-rock-guitarists-vs-guitar-legends-what-separates-them/147318.md?page=3)