# Good characters who do horrible, horrible things **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [April 15, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504 "2011-04-15T16:33:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/61 "2011-04-15T22:26:28Z")
> [@Andy\_L](#): > > Yes - throughout the series, Xander’s attitude towards Angel and Spike was in some ways the most reasonable - he remembered from episode to episode that however necessary it was to work with them for pragmatic reasons, these are deeply dangerous people, who would quite possibly kill him and everyone he loved the moment external constraints were released (now jealousy might have helped him see this more clearly from time to time). After everyone expresses shock at something horrible that Spike did: “When are you people going to remember that I HATE YOU!” My wife always used to cry, “Why is Spike being so mean?”, and I’d always tell her, “Maybe it’s because Spike is _pure evil_.” Also note that Buffy didn’t end up killing Angel without knowing it. She knew he turned back into Angel, and decided to kill him anyway. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/62 "2011-04-15T22:45:23Z")
> [@Satchmo](#): > > **chorpler** , I’m confused. How did it not “end up happening”. They flared the sun to feed the attitude jets that were only mounted on 5% of the ring. The extra boost stopped the ring from getting further and further off center. Once it was back centered, they said the jets would keep it that way without the flares, but the people in those sections were already irradiated. Am I just remembering it wrong? This was a choice the Protectors could not make. I don’t have the book here to check. You remember precisely correctly. That’s how **The Ringworld Engineers** ended, and Louis not only had to make that decision (to kill 1.5 trillion people to save the rest), he also had to kill his old friend Teela Brown because, as a Protector, she could clearly visualize 1.5 trillion lives and couldn’t allow their deaths even though it would save the remaining 28.5 trillion people on the other 95% of the Ringworld. **However** , at the beginning of the sequel **The Ringworld Throne** , the Hindmost revealed to a distraught-and-committing-slow-suicide-by-aging Louis Wu that his computers were far more powerful than the protector Teela Brown had realized, and they were able to control the superconducting magnetic network so well that they were able to feed the sun’s flaring plasma jets directly into the rim wall attitude jets, without having to irradiate the entire million-miles-wide-by-5%-of-the-ring that lay between the rim walls. Everybody Louis had met, that he’d been feeling guilty about having had to kill, was actually fine, except for a somewhat increased cancer rate amongst the Spill Mountain folk who lived right up against the rim walls. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/63 "2011-04-15T23:08:18Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Since the First Evil was trying to kill Angel in the Xmas episode (Atonement?), I’m going to say no. I assume with very little actual “evidence” that the Powers That Be in general, and possibly Jasmine in particular, saved Angel with the snowstorm, and they seem most likely to be behind Willow’s sudden uptick in mojo. I thought it might be the First Evil because it seemed to enjoy tormenting Angel, so I figured it might have wanted the soul-restoring to succeed so that Angel himself could spend a 500-year interval in a lovely little hell dimension at the hands of his own girlfriend. ---
**Author:** ![TBG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c89c15/32.png) [@TBG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBG)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/64 "2011-04-15T23:26:51Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > After everyone expresses shock at something horrible that Spike did: “When are you people going to remember that I HATE YOU!” > > My wife always used to cry, “Why is Spike being so mean?”, and I’d always tell her, “Maybe it’s because Spike is _pure evil_.” > > Also note that Buffy didn’t end up killing Angel without knowing it. She knew he turned back into Angel, and decided to kill him anyway. She didn’t really kill him anyway, just sent him to a hell dimension. I know even on the show they sometimes would say she killed him but come on, he was no more dead than Fred was when she got transported to Pylea. Anyway… speaking of vampires… Mitchell on the UK version of Being Human Spoilers for up the the series 3 finale [spoiler]Box Tunnel 20 Not something he did back in his past when he was a bad boy, but an absolute atrocity he commits after spending years “reforming”. Amazingly, they don’t just gloss it over, but make it a major part of the plot for the following series, and ultimately it leads to his whole life with George and Annie crashing down and George staking him. [/spoiler]I don’t know where the US version is heading (assuming there’s even a season 2) but I doubt it’ll go down that way. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 15, 2011, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/65 "2011-04-15T23:42:00Z")
> [@TBG](#): > > She didn’t really kill him anyway, just sent him to a hell dimension. I know even on the show they sometimes would say she killed him but come on, he was no more dead than Fred was when she got transported to Pylea. > > Anyway… speaking of vampires… > > Mitchell on the UK version of Being Human > > Spoilers for up the the series 3 finale > > [spoiler]Box Tunnel 20 > > Not something he did back in his past when he was a bad boy, but an absolute atrocity he commits after spending years “reforming”. Amazingly, they don’t just gloss it over, but make it a major part of the plot for the following series, and ultimately it leads to his whole life with George and Annie crashing down and George staking him. [/spoiler]I don’t know where the US version is heading (assuming there’s even a season 2) but I doubt it’ll go down that way. What was the atrocity? ---
**Author:** ![Satchmo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/satchmo/32/4223_2.png) [@Satchmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satchmo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/66 "2011-04-16T00:32:39Z")
**chorpler** , Many thanks. I know I read _Ringworld Throne_, but did not remember that part. I’ll have to read it again. I agree with you, so far as Louis was concerned, they would die, so it counts. Have you read any of the _Fleet of Worlds_ prequels? I only recently discovered them at the Library. They seem pretty good to me, though not the same quality as _Ringworld_. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/67 "2011-04-16T00:35:11Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > After everyone expresses shock at something horrible that Spike did: “When are you people going to remember that I HATE YOU!” > > My wife always used to cry, “Why is Spike being so mean?”, and I’d always tell her, “Maybe it’s because Spike is _pure evil_.” > > Also note that Buffy didn’t end up killing Angel without knowing it. She knew he turned back into Angel, and decided to kill him anyway. Well she had no choice at that point - to save the world, the sword had to go back into the demon-guy, through Angel (as I recall). ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/68 "2011-04-16T00:42:48Z")
> [@Mr\_Shine](#): > > I can’t by any stretch of the imagination classify either of these men as good guys. hmmm. I think Walt is the quintessential good guy who does horrible things…Jesse even more so. Jesse is a sweetie. I guess it comes down to a person’s opinion of at what point do your deeds define you? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/69 "2011-04-16T00:50:01Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > hmmm. I think Walt is the quintessential good guy who does horrible things…Jesse even more so. Jesse is a sweetie. > > I guess it comes down to a person’s opinion of at what point do your deeds define you? Nothing else defines us but our deeds. What I think, believe, hope for, dream of, even what I love doesn’t matter: just what I do. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/70 "2011-04-16T00:57:42Z")
> [@Satchmo](#): > > **chorpler** , > Many thanks. I know I read _Ringworld Throne_, but did not remember that part. I’ll have to read it again. > > I agree with you, so far as Louis was concerned, they would die, so it counts. > > Have you read any of the _Fleet of Worlds_ prequels? I only recently discovered them at the Library. They seem pretty good to me, though not the same quality as _Ringworld_. Yes I’ve read all four of them. They get better as they go along. Edward Lerner does a pretty good job at “playing in the playground,” in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/71 "2011-04-16T00:59:16Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Nothing else defines us but our deeds. What I think, believe, hope for, dream of, even what I love doesn’t matter: just what I do. I agree, and I was going to go there, except that our deeds are many, and if there wasn’t some degree of “good person/horrible deeds” this thread would be moot. So I’ll be more specific: at what point do we decide that a person’s bad deeds cancel out her good deeds and actually define him or her as a _bad person_? I think motive needs to be taken into account, certainly. Walt’s motives were excellent…but at what point does he have to answer the question of why the people he loves apparently rate above all other living beings so that it’s ok or forgivable to be the direct or indirect cause of other people’s deaths in the service of taking care of _your_ family? As for Jesse, I don’t think he’s a bad guy at all, and the only really bad thing he’s done (or we think he’s done… lord, let July come NOW!) was motivated by self-preservation and desperation. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/72 "2011-04-16T01:46:36Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > As for Jesse, I don’t think he’s a bad guy at all, and the only really bad thing he’s done (or we think he’s done… lord, let July come NOW!) was motivated by self-preservation and desperation. Wasn’t he, even before Walt found him, already making and dealing lots of methamphetamine, and adulterating it with chili powder? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/73 "2011-04-16T02:15:00Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > Wasn’t he, even before Walt found him, already making and dealing lots of methamphetamine, and adulterating it with chili powder? Yes. As far as I’m concerned, that doesn’t make him bad. I don’t even know that it’s really a bad thing…I’m very much in favor of adults having access to whatever stupid, life-destroying drugs they prefer, and I think drug laws themselves are responsible for the majority of the harm that comes to the greater society because of drugs, so while Jesse was breaking the law, I don’t consider it defining him as a bad person, particularly since he has consistently shown himself to have a genuine moral center as well as the courage to stand up for that center, so by my lights he’s much, much, much more of a good guy. Obviously, YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/74 "2011-04-16T02:20:47Z")
> [@Stoid](#): > > Yes. As far as I’m concerned, that doesn’t make him bad. I don’t even know that it’s really a bad thing…I’m very much in favor of adults having access to whatever stupid, life-destroying drugs they prefer, and I think drug laws themselves are responsible for the majority of the harm that comes to the greater society because of drugs, so while Jesse was breaking the law, I don’t consider it defining him as a bad person, particularly since he has consistently shown himself to have a genuine moral center as well as the courage to stand up for that center, so by my lights he’s much, much, much more of a good guy. > > Obviously, YMMV. OK, then, I think I agree. It wasn’t like he was trying to entice people to try his product via advertising, or lying to them about what they were getting, or deliberately getting them addicted, and he wasn’t selling to kids. He **was** deliberately adulterating his product with chili powder as his “trademark,” but the buyers knew about that, so it was all being done above-board. I think his character in **Big Love** was cool, too… ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/75 "2011-04-16T02:59:59Z")
> [@Ferret\_Herder](#): > > Ok, ok, it was shorthand. 😛 Make that “Nite Owl, Dr. Manhattan, and Silk Spectre.” “Other Watchmen” doesn’t imply a formal team or organization. Still, since they are Alan Moore characters, maybe “other science-heroes” might be the way to go. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/76 "2011-04-16T03:03:43Z")
In the context of this thread, would the Bible be considered “literature”? Many of the heroes of the Old Testament (esp. Lot, Jacob, Noah and David) are considered “heroes” because the narrative tells us God favors them. Judged more objectively, they are at minimum total dicks and, in David’s case, even worse. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/77 "2011-04-16T03:03:59Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > But who watches the WATCHMEN, then? Aye, I’d say Ozymandias from _The Watchmen_ counts. Also, how about Harry Dresden? Specifically, in chapter 28 of _Death Masks_: Harry and Michael and Sanya have Cassius trapped in a hotel room, but Michael and Sanya refuse to kill Cassius after he gives up the demon coin that’s been possessing him and helping him do monstrous, evil things for literally hundreds of years. Michael and Sanya leave the room, but Harry stays behind and: > [@](#): > > “People like you always mistake compassion for weakness. Michael and Sanya aren’t weak. Fortunately for you, they’re good men.” > > Cassius laughed at me. > > “Unfortunately for you, I’m not.” And then Harry beats the fucking shit out him with a baseball bat. It’s easily one of my favorite moments of the whole series. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/78 "2011-04-16T03:26:37Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > He also > > [spoiler]cut that guy’s legs off when he had a seizure during a combat op. Obviously not something he intended, but it was a direct result of his selfish decision to hide his medical condition from his superiors. > > Somewhat mitigated by the fact that they grew the guy new legs, but still.[/spoiler] All these Bujold references, and none to Aral Vorkosigan? Aral, an honorable, upright sort of guy, went along with Emperor Ezal in his scheme to kill Ezal’s psychotic son Serg by basically arranging events so that a whole bunch of people were killed and Serg was just one of many. Aral went along with it because the Emperor convinced him it would be better than a psychotic Emperor Serg. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 10:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/79 "2011-04-18T10:25:25Z")
How about Miyo from Order of the Stick? > **[Miko Miyazaki](https://oots.fandom.com/wiki/Miko_Miyazaki)** > > Miko Miyazaki was a Paladin of the Sapphire Guard of Azure City, and was known to be its most zealous member. She was the primary antagonist of the second book, No Cure for the Paladin Blues. Miko's father's name was Eyko, a member of a noble family... ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504/80 "2011-04-18T11:21:09Z")
> [@Autolycus](#): > > How about Miyo from Order of the Stick? > > [Miko Miyazaki | Order of the Stick Wiki | Fandom](http://oots.wikia.com/wiki/Miko_Miyazaki) True, given that the OP didn’t require the character to be both “heroic” and “sympathetic”. A couple examples I remember from _Irredeemable_ (a superhero comic that begins with the Plutonian – a Superman-level hero with no known vulnerabilities – going batshit crazy and his surviving teammates trying to find some way to stop him): [spoiler]Bette Noire had a piece of wax from a candle that temporarily negated Plutonian’s powers while it burned. She kept this secret because she didn’t want to reveal the circumstances under which she’d obtained it (it was used to avoid the Man-of-Steel-Woman-of-Kleenex problem while she cheated on her fiance with him). The Hornet had been suspicious of the Plutonian even before he snapped. A flashback of the heroes battling an alien invasion shows the Hornet cutting a deal with the aliens to leave Earth alone in exchange for teleport technology and the locations of other inhabited planets for them to invade instead. [/spoiler] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-characters-who-do-horrible-horrible-things/578504.md?page=5)