# Good for you, CNN. (edit teen suicide/gender identity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743 "2015-01-02T04:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/181 "2015-01-03T19:43:12Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > However, my mind keeps going to the truck driver whose truck she threw herself in front of. Is anybody thinking about him? Him? _Him?_ That’s awfully presumptuous. ---
**Author:** ![Hayden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/91b2a8/32.png) [@Hayden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hayden)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/182 "2015-01-03T19:45:03Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The difference being that Leelah never claimed she had a female body nor basic overriding physiology. **She was a different gender than aligned with her sex.** How do you know? Anyone can say that. If I say that I feel like a woman, does that automatically make me female? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/183 "2015-01-03T19:47:40Z")
It kinda makes me wonder how transgenderism would manifest in a hypothetical society that didn’t bother with all the arbitrary distinctions we’re used to. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/184 "2015-01-03T19:48:14Z")
> [@Hayden](#): > > How do you know? Anyone can say that. > > If I say that I feel like a woman, does that automatically make me female? It could make your gender female. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/185 "2015-01-03T19:48:43Z")
> [@Hayden](#): > > How do you know? Anyone can say that. > > If I say that I feel like a woman, does that automatically make me female? Sometimes I feel like a 20 year-old, but there’s never one around. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/186 "2015-01-03T19:51:10Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why are you being contrary about this? I wasn’t being confrontational, I was honestly curious. I’m a teacher, too. We have a transgendered kid right now. Fortunately, his parents and he and the school are all on the same page–he identifies as male, dresses as male, is called by a male name, and it seems to be going smoothly. I actually think he’s a little ambivalent, due to a variety of things, but I don’t see why letting him identify as male _outside the house_ is a terrible thing. If he decides later to transition back, we will roll with it. I honestly feel like his community can cope with that–it won’t leave him tainted, it won’t be a big deal that for a while “everyone thought I was a boy!”. It seems like it would be much worse to treat this as a secret that has to be kept in the house until a certain age. What’s odd is, if I’m following him correctly, **Grotonian** seems to be arguing that letting a kid transition is a bad idea, because the kid might later want to transition back, and be scarred by the process. But his solution appears to be to allow the kid to present as one gender at home, and a different gender in public - in effect, switching back and forth every time they leave the home. I’m not clear on how switching from one gender to the other and back one time is supposed to be damaging, but doing it every single day is not. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/187 "2015-01-03T20:14:12Z")
> [@Hayden](#): > > How do you know? Anyone can say that. > > If I say that I feel like a woman, does that automatically make me female? No. But if you _do_ feel like a woman, that could well make you female. Since the best way for us to know what you feel is what you say, if you say you’re a woman, it would make sense for us to treat you as one. Barring obvious lies, jokes, or whatever. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/188 "2015-01-03T20:26:50Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > Him? _Him?_ That’s awfully presumptuous. Which gender-neutral pronoun would you prefer? I, for one, am happy to accommodate your needs. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/189 "2015-01-03T21:13:11Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Which gender-neutral pronoun would you prefer? I, for one, am happy to accommodate your needs. You have to ask the truck driver. And the other 7 billion-odd people on the planet. You can call me Ray. Or you could call me Jay. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/190 "2015-01-03T21:58:48Z")
> [@Hayden](#): > > How do you know? Anyone can say that. > > If I say that I feel like a woman, does that automatically make me female? I dunno. What I will say is that if you throw yourself in front of a semi truck because of your convictions, I’d probably give you the benefit of the doubt. Doing otherwise would be kind of incredibly shitty. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/191 "2015-01-03T22:06:57Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > What’s odd is, if I’m following him correctly, **Grotonian** seems to be arguing that letting a kid transition is a bad idea, because the kid might later want to transition back, and be scarred by the process. But his solution appears to be to allow the kid to present as one gender at home, and a different gender in public - in effect, switching back and forth every time they leave the home. I’m not clear on how switching from one gender to the other and back one time is supposed to be damaging, but doing it every single day is not. One thing we do seem to know is that attempting to lock it down can indeed be damaging (the thread topic is my cite). ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/192 "2015-01-03T22:15:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > It kinda makes me wonder how transgenderism would manifest in a hypothetical society that didn’t bother with all the arbitrary distinctions we’re used to. The distinction between man and woman are far from arbitrary…they dictate much of how we structure our society. In a society that shunned gender roles people would exist on some kind of continuum, a pangenderism if you will, BUT we can’t get around the basic fact that for sexual recreation there are only really two possibilities: stick or hole. I think people are downplaying the role of hormones in biological development and overstating the impact of the brain. A body/brain disconnect does manifest itself in certain people, but if you have testicles producing testosterone it is very likely you will develop male behaviors and if you have ovaries producing estrogen then you will very likely develop female behaviors. I am not quite convinced that we can put the brain before hormones in terms of gender development. It may be, as non-politically-correct as it sounds, that a body/brain disconnect is simply an error in brain development. I hate to use that word but if this is the case we should not insist on radically restructuring our society based on a marginal group of people. We should respect their autonomy and right to live as they choose. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/193 "2015-01-03T22:16:10Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why are you being contrary about this? I wasn’t being confrontational, I was honestly curious. I’m a teacher, too. We have a transgendered kid right now. Fortunately, his parents and he and the school are all on the same page–he identifies as male, dresses as male, is called by a male name, and it seems to be going smoothly. I actually think he’s a little ambivalent, due to a variety of things, but I don’t see why letting him identify as male _outside the house_ is a terrible thing. If he decides later to transition back, we will roll with it. I honestly feel like his community can cope with that–it won’t leave him tainted, it won’t be a big deal that for a while “everyone thought I was a boy!”. It seems like it would be much worse to treat this as a secret that has to be kept in the house until a certain age. If this is what those who know him best agree is in his best interest, then I think they’ve found a solution that will guarantee his happiness and success and prevent his suicide. Perfect solution. Kid saved. Suicide prevented. It just wouldn’t have been my recommendation. But don’t worry about my recommendation. My recommendation would have resulted in doing every single thing that’s being done for him, except he’d still go by “Jenny” at school and he’d use the girls’ bathrooms. Obviously, my recommendation is so drastically different from what was done that the kid would have no choice but to kill himself. Thank God a much better solution was found. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/194 "2015-01-03T22:26:14Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > You confuse my insistence on proper pronouns with thinking transgenderism isn’t real. When you’re referring to adoptive parents, do you use the word “mother” and “father”? If you do, then aren’t you LYING when you do that? After all, “mother” and “father” have very specific and testable biological meanings that these people don’t meet. Of course, “mother” and “father” also have social and familial and cultural meanings that these people DO meet, and we as a society have decided that we are generally happy to use those words to represent the social meanings even when the biological ones aren’t there. And when necessary, we can specify “adoptive mother” or “biological father” to clear up any confusion. And why do we as a society use language that way? Largely because not doing so would be a total dick move. Do you want to say to someone “well, sure you’ve raised this child since the age of 1 and changed all her diapers and loved her and cared for her, but you are NOT her mother. Words have meanings. I will not lie for you.” If I refer to a MtF transgendered person as a “woman”, knowing full well that she was born male and has XY chromosomes and can not bear children, am I _lying_? Am I attempting to deceive anyone? Am I _wrong_? I think you’d have a heck of time making a convincing case that I am any of those things… instead, I am using the word differently than you seem to want to use it, and the way that I’m using it is both increasingly accepted as correct, and, (I claim), far more useful, polite and healthy. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/195 "2015-01-03T22:32:58Z")
I do somewhat agree with **Grotonian** that this issue, like many, is much less clear when applied to children. If an adult lives as a woman and calls herself a woman, she’s a woman as far as I’m concerned. But that’s assuming an adult who is taking this seriously, knows the implications and consequences of what they’re saying, and still makes a conscious and deliberate choice. Sufficiently young children aren’t capable of that level of decision making, which is the reason that any number of societal rules have exceptions for children. I hate hate HATE censorship in all ways… for adults. I believe in the right to enter into binding contracts… for adults. I believe that people have the right to smoke pot and drink and smoke cigarettes… if they’re adults. Etc. What I would actually do if I encountered a 6- or 8- or 12- or 16- year old with a outside-the-norm gender identity I don’t know, and I certainly don’t claim to be an expert or even remotely knowledgeable at all, but I don’t think it’s offensive or ridiculous to say that the rule you apply to adults does NOT automatically apply to children. (That said, I certainly agree with CNN’s coverage choice in this instance…) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/196 "2015-01-03T23:15:33Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > The distinction between man and woman are far from arbitrary…they dictate much of how we structure our society. That doesn’t make them not-arbitrary. Heck, there are societies with structures largely dictated by religious beliefs, and religion is awesomely arbitrary. > [@](#): > > In a society that shunned gender roles people would exist on some kind of continuum, a pangenderism if you will, BUT we can’t get around the basic fact that for sexual recreation there are only really two possibilities: stick or hole. Yes, but so what? Who you sexually recreate with (and how) is a personal matter. I’m not even implying that this would (or should) change, but for example let’s say the hypothetical society saw no reason half the population should wear pants and other half skirts, figuring instead that individuals should choose whatever suits their comfort, budget and work requirements. This isn’t a matter of political correctness or “we’re all the same” bullshit. Fuck that crap. Nevertheless, a great deal of what we socially invest in the importance of gender is meaningless. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/197 "2015-01-03T23:33:55Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Hey look, someone who I actually believe is actually interested in learning something! Yes! And thank you. > [@](#): > > Basically, it’s been established that [certain elements of the brain differ between men and women](http://www.webmd.com/balance/features/how-male-female-brains-differ). Well, numerous studies have found that in various parts of the brain of people suffering from GD, it matches the profile of their target gender, rather than their body’s gender. That is, a FTM transsexual will, despite having female genitals, have a brain structure that is in many regards far more similar to that of a man than of a woman. I could cite a lot of studies here, but the Wikipedia page on the subject has a great listing of scientific studies in the citations section, and I’d mostly be cribbing off that anyways, so [feel free to take a look](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_transsexualism#Brain_structure). Indeed, it’s perhaps worth mentioning that these differences occur in transsexuals who have not been treated at all - it isn’t caused by the hormones given as therapy. > > Essentially, what this and some other research heavily implies is that GD is caused by some mixup during gestational development. Something goes wrong, and the brain develops itself “out of sync” with the body - essentially, a female brain in a male body, or vice versa. The [NHS](http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Causes.aspx)also has a pretty solid page on the subject. > > The important takeaway here is that the idea of “gender” depending entirely on what’s in your pants can be thrown out the window. It’s _simply not accurate_. The fact is that differences in gender can be very clearly seen within a person’s brain structure, and that occasionally, that doesn’t match up. Now, which is more important is a matter of personal opinion; however, for those suffering from gender dysphoria, it’s very clear: the _brain_ is the more important one. It’s what tells them who they are. Refusing to acknowledge this is asinine, ignorant, and cruel. Acknowledging to someone who is female, who knows that they are female, but is stuck with a male body (and let’s be clear - _that’s what’s going on here_) that they actually are female goes a long way towards helping them deal with the problems that GD brings with it (it’s not categorized as a mental disorder for nothing, regardless of how many people misinterpret that to mean “these people need to get over their gender problems”). In fact, you can see the effects of this [incredibly clearly](http://transstudent.tumblr.com/post/106740668328/transstudent-how-parental-support-can-make-a). Thank you again for this. It really does help me a lot to have some factual data here. Now, in some ways, even the facts don’t matter, as I’m politically in favor of people having as much right as possible to determine their own pathways in life. Frankly, if anyone wanted to declare themselves of the other sex – and made a serious determination to live that way – no weekend flings – then I would support this, and would fight against laws that would ban it. But the facts make it more important, because there are young boys and girls who are suffering from these issues. It goes beyond mere choice, and into real medical need. Just as I despise the right-wing political stance that homosexuality is a “choice” or a “life-style,” so I am learning – thank you once more! – that the right-wing emphasis on sexual identification as a “mere choice” is also a load of hooey. Even if it were just a choice, I’d still support it, but I support it all the more because it is so much more than just a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/198 "2015-01-03T23:43:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > . . . Transgender kids go through years of counseling, as do their parents. Years and years. The decision to go through puberty blockers is not made lightly nor without seeing consistent, persistent, and insistent evidence for years that the child is indeed transgender. . . . Not very long ago, I had dinner with someone who is a school counselor, who explained some of this to me. It was useful, because (alas) up to then, I had only heard right-wing hate radio (San Diego’s Roger Hedgecock, specifically) who was (oh, what a great surprise) lying his damn ass off about this. He was stirring up hate and fear, saying that boys would now be able to declare themselves girls at the drop of a hat, and then go into girls’ restrooms… Ordinary, honest ignorance is hard enough to fight. (I have a shit-load of it, and need all the real and useful education I can get – and thank you for providing it on this topic!) But intentional dishonesty, of Hedgecock’s variety is worse: it’s just plain evil. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/199 "2015-01-03T23:59:05Z")
We don’t have a great deal of data on gender variant children and youth for the obvious reasons. As far as I can tell, the general consensus, given the data we do have, is that some, perhaps many, gender variant children will “desist” by the time they hit puberty. Many will be gay or lesbian. Those who “persist” as puberty begins are likely to continue to identify as transgender. Since no one considers blockers or hormones, much less surgery, for prepubescent children, this isn’t a major issue. It’s quite possible to simply live with the child one has, whatever the gender identity expressed. However many gender variant kids there are, there’s simply no rush of little boys–or older ones–trying to get into the girls’ room by pretending they’re girls, if only for the day. This just doesn’t happen. My child is a persister. And yeah, it’s scary as hell to think she might possibly change her mind later in life. But no, I really don’t think she will. And I know, as well as I know anything, that she would not be alive today if we did not accept her as the incredibly brave, beautiful, and amazing girl that she is, in spite of what is in her pants. The Department of Education in my state, by the way, encourages schools to allow children the use the bathroom that accords with their persistent and consistent gender identity. I suspect gender fluid kids would be encouraged to use the private bathroom in the nurse’s office. Kids whose parents have issue with transgender kids (and it’s usually the parents, not the kids) are also welcome to use the private bathroom in the nurse’s office. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/200 "2015-01-04T00:12:33Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > I do somewhat agree with **Grotonian** that this issue, like many, is much less clear when applied to children. If an adult lives as a woman and calls herself a woman, she’s a woman as far as I’m concerned. But that’s assuming an adult who is taking this seriously, knows the implications and consequences of what they’re saying, and still makes a conscious and deliberate choice. Sufficiently young children aren’t capable of that level of decision making, which is the reason that any number of societal rules have exceptions for children. I hate hate HATE censorship in all ways… for adults. I believe in the right to enter into binding contracts… for adults. I believe that people have the right to smoke pot and drink and smoke cigarettes… if they’re adults. Etc. > > What I would actually do if I encountered a 6- or 8- or 12- or 16- year old with a outside-the-norm gender identity I don’t know, and I certainly don’t claim to be an expert or even remotely knowledgeable at all, but I don’t think it’s offensive or ridiculous to say that the rule you apply to adults does NOT automatically apply to children. Well, from what I’ve read, the kid born Shiloh Pitt-Jolie is younger than even six, and has, according to Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt, directly asked for short haircuts, boy’s clothes, masculine pronouns, and the name John. The parents are apparently being accommodating, even cutting off Brad’s mother for doing the opposite. AFAIK, they’ve done nothing, and aren’t considering doing, anything irreversible at this point, surely due to age. Thoughts? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=11)