# Good for you, CNN. (edit teen suicide/gender identity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743 "2015-01-02T04:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/241 "2015-01-04T19:39:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Well, good, of course, but do you think you are immune to all other possible errors of judgement? No. My point is that this particular error of judgment was both serious and easily remedied. Again: akin to refusing to treat eczema because your religion forbids it. I don’t think I’m immune to all possible errors of judgment. > [@Grotonian](#): > > Oops what? I cited the article; I know what’s in it. It makes my point: gender was ascertained by **self-report and clothes and games.** Just like I said. So, just out of curiosity, what should we do to diagnose it? Brain scans on every toddler? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/242 "2015-01-04T19:42:21Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > No. My point is that this particular error of judgment was both serious and easily remedied. Again: akin to refusing to treat eczema because your religion forbids it. Sure, but I wonder if the parents were capable of realising that, from where they were. ---
**Author:** ![RingsOfPylon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3da27b/32.png) [@RingsOfPylon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RingsOfPylon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/243 "2015-01-04T20:26:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _Those_ are the criteria. Does that sort of awareness start that early? I ask that because I’ve raised 4 kids and that never came up as a topic of conversation, or any questions about personal physical gender and supposed gender roles. At least, not that I can recall. It probably would have made an impression if they did. Of course, they had some passing curiosity about bodies and the like, and the differences, but beyond that they seemed to be oblivious and disinterested. It’s just difficult for me to imagine someone that young (say 4 or 5 years old) being so cognizant or worldly enough to think that their physical gender is a component of their being, let alone questioning it or thinking it inappropriate. Usually they are just busy playing and going about kid life. Obviously, some kids do notice and think about it. It just seems so odd to be that early. That’s earlier than I would expect. But I guess that’s where the divide occurs. It’s outside of the experience of most folks and hard to grok. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/244 "2015-01-04T20:34:06Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Sure, but I wonder if the parents were capable of realising that, from where they were. Maybe not. And that makes them shitty parents, if not shitty people. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/245 "2015-01-04T21:47:06Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > When you’re referring to adoptive parents, do you use the word “mother” and “father”? If you do, then aren’t you LYING when you do that? After all, “mother” and “father” have very specific and testable biological meanings that these people don’t meet. Of course, “mother” and “father” also have social and familial and cultural meanings that these people DO meet, and we as a society have decided that we are generally happy to use those words to represent the social meanings even when the biological ones aren’t there. And when necessary, we can specify “adoptive mother” or “biological father” to clear up any confusion. > > And why do we as a society use language that way? Largely because not doing so would be a total dick move. Do you want to say to someone “well, sure you’ve raised this child since the age of 1 and changed all her diapers and loved her and cared for her, but you are NOT her mother. Words have meanings. I will not lie for you.” > If I refer to a MtF transgendered person as a “woman”, knowing full well that she was born male and has XY chromosomes and can not bear children, am I _lying_? Am I attempting to deceive anyone? Am I _wrong_? I think you’d have a heck of time making a convincing case that I am any of those things… instead, I am using the word differently than you seem to want to use it, and the way that I’m using it is both increasingly accepted as correct, and, (I claim), far more useful, polite and healthy. Bump, hoping that **Smapti** will respond. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/246 "2015-01-04T21:50:34Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’m not claiming there are no _tendencies_, what I’m saying is that every human being engages in “typically” male AND female behavior. > > There are some extremely aggressive women out there who have no doubts they are women - should with tell them, no based on your behavior, you’re really a man even if you don’t feel like one in your head? There are men that engage in “communication and grouping”, are they still men? > > That’s one of the problems with the whole discussion. A lot of societal gender stuff is based on behavior more than anything else (which is probably a good thing for a transsexual person trying to pass). I also think it’s why the topic makes some people so uncomfortable, it takes away some of that certainty they normally have about what’s a boy and what’s a girl. But it’s clear _some_ gender tendencies are biologically ingrained into us. I would argue most of the gender distinctions in our society are the direct result of these biological differences. There is, of course, a continuum, but sexual behavior is at the root of all societal behavior (if you want to go Freudian), and ultimately we are bound to our “penis or vagina” dichotomy as human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/247 "2015-01-04T21:51:00Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > When you’re referring to adoptive parents, do you use the word “mother” and “father”?.. And when necessary, we can specify “adoptive mother” or “biological father” to clear up any confusion. Seems to me that you’ve answered your own question, then. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/248 "2015-01-04T21:53:07Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Got a question for you. > > If a human being with a penis who identifies as a male loses said penis (disease, accident, whatever) _does he cease to be a man?_ If yes - then what is he, because he’s not a woman. If no - well, he’s a man without a penis, but he’s still a man. He is a man, because he was born a man and will always be a man. Just in the same way that a man who was born a man and believes himself to be a woman, for whatever reasons unto which I am completely sympathetic, will always be a man. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/249 "2015-01-04T21:55:25Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > He is a man, because he was born a man and will always be a man. > > Just in the same way that a man who was born a man and believes himself to be a woman, for whatever reasons unto which I am completely sympathetic, will always be a man. Those aren’t analagous, because in the second situation, the person’s gender is female. Read up on the differences between gender and sex – I already gave you a good starting point. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/250 "2015-01-04T21:58:01Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Those aren’t analagous, because in the second situation, the person’s gender is female. Read up on the differences between gender and sex – I already gave you a good starting point. If a person’s gender is different from and independent of their sex, then why is hormone therapy and surgery considered integral to transgender therapy? If they’re as completely independent and unrelated to each other as you assert, then there’s absolutely no reason why a woman can’t have a penis or a man have a vagina, so why is this treatment prescribed at all? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/251 "2015-01-04T22:04:23Z")
> [@grude](#): > > I honestly wish the articles about the issue would STOP including quotes about how the person in question played with gender inappropriate toys as a child and crap like that. It just confuses and muddies the issue, it is about gender identity not whether someone played with dolls. Almost every article includes a quote from family like this. While I agree it’s not a necessary or sufficient condition for being trans, stuff like this can be indicative. Like it or not, we live in a society with certain gender roles and traits. Some of them may be silly or arbitrary or nonsensical, but they exist. It’s true that just because someone breaks or queers these gender roles, that doesn’t necessarily mean anything. However, someone who has their real identity tied up in the opposite gender as what they’re treated as is going to try and express that gender. How do you do that? By emulating what you observe as normal for the other gender. I’m sure there are probably transgirl tomboys out there, and as transgender becomes increasingly normalized in society such a thing may manifest more frequently. We also shouldn’t jump to trans conclusions just because a girl likes “boy stuff”. However, if a boy is adamant about wanting girl clothes or toys **in concert with outright asserting they’re a girl** (or vice versa), I think it can be treated as reasonable corroborating evidence. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/252 "2015-01-04T22:12:23Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a person’s gender is different from and independent of their sex, then why is hormone therapy and surgery considered integral to transgender therapy? > > If they’re as completely independent and unrelated to each other as you assert, then there’s absolutely no reason why a woman can’t have a penis or a man have a vagina, so why is this treatment prescribed at all? Because that is what, after decades of experimentation and testing, tends to work best for the people that want it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/253 "2015-01-04T22:22:19Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a person’s gender is different from and independent of their sex, then why is hormone therapy and surgery considered integral to transgender therapy? > > If they’re as completely independent and unrelated to each other as you assert, then there’s absolutely no reason why a woman can’t have a penis or a man have a vagina, so why is this treatment prescribed at all? They’re not always completely independent and unrelated, but those procedures (which aren’t performed for every single transgender person) can be helpful for those that desire it. So, again, your understanding of transgender people is deficient. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/254 "2015-01-04T22:23:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > If a person’s gender is different from and independent of their sex, then why is hormone therapy and surgery considered integral to transgender therapy? > > If they’re as completely independent and unrelated to each other as you assert, then there’s absolutely no reason why a woman can’t have a penis or a man have a vagina, so why is this treatment prescribed at all? Because those that seek it would prefer to have their body match as much as possible their personal identity, and for some that includes biological and physical alteration. It’s a bit of an odd question. “Why would you want to appear like who you are to yourself and others, when you don’t?” I can’t imagine what it would be like to be transgender. But if I woke up one morning and found myself in a completely different body - even if that body was male in sex, as I am gender-wise - I would want my body back, even though _who_ I am has not changed. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/255 "2015-01-04T22:39:33Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Because those that seek it would prefer to have their body match as much as possible their personal identity But this again falls back on the assumption that one’s personal identity is intrinsically tied to their body form - which, if gender is a mental state not tied to body form, it _shouldn’t._ So what is gender? ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/256 "2015-01-04T22:49:10Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Seems to me that you’ve answered your own question, then. So what about this: > [@me](#): > > And why do we as a society use language that way? Largely because not doing so would be a total dick move. Do you want to say to someone “well, sure you’ve raised this child since the age of 1 and changed all her diapers and loved her and cared for her, but you are NOT her mother. Words have meanings. I will not lie for you.” > If I refer to a MtF transgendered person as a “woman”, knowing full well that she was born male and has XY chromosomes and can not bear children, am I lying? Am I attempting to deceive anyone? Am I wrong? I think you’d have a heck of time making a convincing case that I am any of those things… instead, I am using the word differently than you seem to want to use it, and the way that I’m using it is both increasingly accepted as correct, and, (I claim), far more useful, polite and healthy. Is it still your position that referring to an MtF individual as a “man” is a lie? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/257 "2015-01-04T22:49:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But this again falls back on the assumption that one’s personal identity is intrinsically tied to their body form - which, if gender is a mental state not tied to body form, it _shouldn’t._ > > So what is gender? Wrong. Some people don’t feel comfortable with the body they have and want to change it. Their gender is already set, even if it doesn’t match their biological sex, and they just prefer that their biological sex matches their gender. So a transgender woman is already female, and already a woman – and it’s up to her if she wants to change her body so her body is also female. ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/258 "2015-01-04T22:51:02Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But this again falls back on the assumption that one’s personal identity is intrinsically tied to their body form - which, if gender is a mental state not tied to body form, it _shouldn’t._ > > So what is gender? Gender is the set of social and cultural norms/behaviors associated with certain sexes. Some cultures even have 3 or 4 genders (the third/fourth is often close to genderqueer or transexuality, see the [Two-Spirit](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-Spirit) wiki page. I learned about this in an anthropology course as the “berdache” role that shamans took in the kutenai tribe). ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/259 "2015-01-04T22:59:30Z")
As a general rule in debate, when one side stoops to asking for a definition of a word which they could easily find in a dictionary, it is a sign. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/260 "2015-01-04T23:03:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But this again falls back on the assumption that one’s personal identity is intrinsically tied to their body form - which, if gender is a mental state not tied to body form, it _shouldn’t._ No, it doesn’t. A light and hopefully not offensive analogy (and I apologise sincerely if anyone is offended by it); I am a fan of a football team. Whether or not I am wearing a jersey of my favourite football team, or have a tattoo of my favourite player, or wear facepaint when I go to their games, I am a fan. Those are all things that I might _choose_ to do _because_ I am a fan - but I might not. And if I do not that doesn’t mean that I am not a fan. My personal identity as a fan might lead me to particular outward expressions of that identity, but that doesn’t mean that those expressions are\* intrinsic\* to my identity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=14)