# Good for you, CNN. (edit teen suicide/gender identity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743 "2015-01-02T04:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/281 "2015-01-05T17:56:16Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > It’s confusing because you’re incorrect on Una’s birth state. Since it’s no secret here and Una probably gets tired of repeating herself: Una was born with an intersex condition, assigned the gender of “male”, never had a normal male puberty, and felt she was female all her life, despite trying to live as a man in our society. She transitioned and is now legally a female as well as presenting one. > > While still legally male, Una married her wife Fierra. That marriage still stands, So what started as a heterosexual marriage is now a same-sex marriage. I’m not sure exactly how you’d classify the sexual orientation thing, but frankly, I don’t care and since I’m not involved with any of the parties it’s really none of my business what they do or don’t do in the privacy of their own home. I think people get way too hung up on the whole sexual orientation thing anyway, but that’s another topic. Thank you. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/282 "2015-01-05T18:03:06Z")
> [@grude](#): > > Most transgender individuals are painfully aware their physical body does not match how they feel inside, they aren’t under any delusion about what chromosomes they have or what genitals they have. This strawman is ridiculous, I don’t know why people feel like their rights are being violated by social pressure to call someone by the pronoun they prefer and present as. Indeed. For all the cries of “but…this is such an unbearable burden, oh waily, waily, waily!”, ‘he’ takes the same physical effort to say as ‘she’. > [@](#): > > I don’t know why the bathroom thing keeps being trotted out, so a heterosexual male is going to socially transition to a woman and dress as a woman just so he can trick his way into using the female restroom. Right, it’s like [the fallacy that allowing transgender women to compete with cisgender women is all a plot to deprive “real” American women of medals.](http://transascity.org/cross-training-the-history-and-future-of-transgender-and-intersex-athletes-6/) > [@](#): > > However, the scenario, although possible, is highly improbable for several reasons: > [ul] > [li]SRS is essentially irreversible. Any man who went through this would need to resign themselves to living physically as a woman for the rest of their life. Given the tremendous importance, almost religious in character, of sexual organs in our society, this would not be a decision many people could make regardless of the money involved.[/li][li]Some significant doctor-shopping would be required, and this could be checked by any sporting authority which cared to do so. There is a high possibility that a sudden influx of transwomen from any country or on any team would result in an investigation. And people talk. Whether for money, jealousy, for simply just for being gossips, people talk.[/li][li]The waiting period of 2 years minimum post-operative would be very difficult from a psychological standpoint for the fake transsexual. Adding to this the fact that the athlete would likely need to demonstrate 12 months of full-time real-life experience with hormones prior to surgery, and now we’re talking about at least 3 years of playing the waiting game – eating, training, and having sexual relations – living in a fake gender role. The psychological pressures would be enormous.[/li][li]Let’s keep in mind that there is no guarantee at all that even under the best circumstances the fake transgender athlete would succeed against XX women. They would almost certainly need to start pulling in wins and gold medals for their Bond-villainesque sponsors to continue to sponsor them. This is difficult enough under the best circumstances, but here the entire body and sexual identity of the athlete is on the line.[/li][/ul] > In short, the entire scenario is theoretically possible (perhaps better to say “theatrically possible”), but that should never be mistaken for being probable. Not only is it so unlikely that an XY man would go through this effort, regardless of the reward, but that that they could dominate a sport enough to make it worthwhile – and not be detected as a fraud by numerous sporting organizations which are highly motivated towards fraud detection – is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/283 "2015-01-05T18:41:18Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Beyond recognizing the need for reproduction, I don’t know why anyone should really care. I know what type of human I like to have sex with, but beyond that… Do you include sex and/or gender in your list of traits of the type of human you like to have sex with? ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/284 "2015-01-05T21:15:01Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > No, it doesn’t. > > A light and hopefully not offensive analogy (and I apologise sincerely if anyone is offended by it); I am a fan of a football team. Whether or not I am wearing a jersey of my favourite football team, or have a tattoo of my favourite player, or wear facepaint when I go to their games, I am a fan. Those are all things that I might _choose_ to do _because_ I am a fan - but I might not. And if I do not that doesn’t mean that I am not a fan. My personal identity as a fan might lead me to particular outward expressions of that identity, but that doesn’t mean that those expressions are\* intrinsic\* to my identity. This actually captures an important distinction between gender identity and gender expression. Gender identity is deep, probably hardwired, and enduring–the gender you _know_ yourself to be. It’s part of what makes you, you. Gender expression is the equivalent of the tee-shirts, face paint, and tats, the way you look on the outside in terms of dress, toy preferences, haircut, and so forth. Gender expression can vary considerably over the course of a lifetime–or a week, in the case of many teenagers. Gender identity doesn’t, although a person’s understanding of it might. A boy who likes Barbie dolls is gender variant when it comes to expression, but not identity unless he says she’s a she. Not all transgirls like Barbies–not all transgirls are girlie girls. Gender expression is largely determined by culture (pink is associated with femininity in this culture but not that) and personality, gender identity is not. So when my little tyke liked Barbies, I thought I had a gender variant boy. Turns out I have a girl who recognized that in this culture, girls play with dolls and boys most often don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/285 "2015-01-05T21:19:31Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > No, it doesn’t. > > A light and hopefully not offensive analogy (and I apologise sincerely if anyone is offended by it); I am a fan of a football team. Whether or not I am wearing a jersey of my favourite football team, or have a tattoo of my favourite player, or wear facepaint when I go to their games, I am a fan. And yet, nobody would claim that you are inherently and uncontrollably a fan of that given team. You are a fan because you _choose_ to be one. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/286 "2015-01-05T21:20:57Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > It might help here to point out that the term ‘born a man’ is nonsense. Nobody is ‘born a man’. People are born as babies. No expectant parent I have ever talked to has answered the question “What are you having?” by saying “We’re not sure yet, we’ll find out in four or five years when we see what kind of toys it likes.” ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/287 "2015-01-05T21:32:51Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No expectant parent I have ever talked to has answered the question “What are you having?” by saying “We’re not sure yet, we’ll find out in four or five years when we see what kind of toys it likes.” And this has nothing to do with anything. A complete nonsequitur. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/288 "2015-01-05T21:37:34Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > No expectant parent I have ever talked to has answered the question “What are you having?” by saying “We’re not sure yet, we’ll find out in four or five years when we see what kind of toys it likes.” > [@Mangetout](#): > > And this has nothing to do with anything. A complete nonsequitur. Although I am curious to know if any of the expectant parents you spoke to replied “We’re having a man! That’s right - I’m giving birth to a man in February!” ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/289 "2015-01-05T21:41:33Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > And this has nothing to do with anything. A complete nonsequitur. A new parent says “we’re having a boy” or “we’re having a girl”, not “we’re having a human who will eventually develop an internal perception of its personal identity based on biochemistry, social cues, and its personal comfort zone, thereby informing us as to what gender it is”. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/290 "2015-01-05T21:47:21Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > A new parent says “we’re having a boy” or “we’re having a girl”, not “we’re having a human who will eventually develop an internal perception of its personal identity based on biochemistry, social cues, and its personal comfort zone, thereby informing us as to what gender it is”. That’s because when a child is born, it doesn’t have much of a sense of personal identity, so the only assumption (and it’s not always straightforward) one can make about its gender is physical, **which was almost exactly the point I was trying to make**. As that child develops a sense of identity, that identity may not align with the physical configuration of the person’s body - that is - sometimes, it turns out that the initial assumption was not correct. Such is the nature of assumption. The identity is the person. Yes, and I am saying that a newborn baby is not a complete, developed person by this definition. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/291 "2015-01-05T21:49:45Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > That’s because when a child is born, it doesn’t have much of a sense of personal identity, so the only assumption (and it’s not always straightforward) one can make about its gender is physical, **which was almost exactly the point I was trying to make**. > > As that child develops a sense of identity, that identity may not align with the physical configuration of the person’s body. The identity is the person. And the person gets to make the best of life with the body they have. The fact that the body they have might not be the body they want doesn’t mean they get to insist that they somehow metaphysically _are_ a person possessing the body they want. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/292 "2015-01-05T21:52:19Z")
Why are you so hung up on genitalia? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/293 "2015-01-05T21:52:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And the person gets to make the best of life with the body they have. The fact that the body they have might not be the body they want doesn’t mean they get to insist that they somehow metaphysically _are_ a person possessing the body they want. Bullshit. Says who? You? ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/294 "2015-01-05T22:02:53Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And the person gets to make the best of life with the body they have. The fact that the body they have might not be the body they want doesn’t mean they get to insist that they somehow metaphysically _are_ a person possessing the body they want. Did God deliver that to you on a mountain or something? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/295 "2015-01-05T22:05:37Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And the person gets to make the best of life with the body they have. The fact that the body they have might not be the body they want doesn’t mean they get to insist that they somehow metaphysically _are_ a person possessing the body they want. Some people choose to change their bodies. Others may choose not to, but still identify with a gender that’s different than their biological sex. If you want to be a kind and decent person, then I think the right thing to do is to respect these individual’s wishes as to their gender identity. It costs you absolutely nothing, and is in line with both the dictionary definition and common use of the word “gender”. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/296 "2015-01-05T22:39:56Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > If you want to be a kind and decent person, then I think the right thing to do is to respect these individual’s wishes as to their gender identity. Assumes facts not in evidence. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2015, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/297 "2015-01-05T23:06:32Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > The fact that the body they have might not be the body they want doesn’t mean they get to insist that they somehow metaphysically _are_ a person possessing the body they want. I neglected to post this earlier, but since you’re persisting… The word “gender” has traditionally referred to how nouns are classified in language. Many of the European languages use genders to indicate male, female, or neuter, but other languages use gendered nouns to indicate other characteristics, like whether something is alive or not, or other strange discriminations (I read these in _The Language Instinct_ about 15 years ago so don’t recall perfectly). English doesn’t have gendered nouns, but pronouns still have it. The word “sex” was traditionally the one you wanted to use when referring to whether a creature is physically male or female. In the 20th century, the word “sex” made school kids giggle, so increasingly the word “gender” came to be used as a euphemism. But as soon as it did, it took on a slightly different meaning than “sex.” It indicates more than the genitalia or chromosome configuration - it’s the identity of a person in society. Any dictionary definition you can find notes this. So if you’re insisting that gendered pronouns be used strictly in accordance with genitals or chromosomes, it’s _you_ who is trying to redefine words. You’re not somehow standing up for traditional definitions here, you’re trying to revise based on your narrow views. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/298 "2015-01-06T11:24:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > And yet, nobody would claim that you are inherently and uncontrollably a fan of that given team. You are a fan because you _choose_ to be one. Why is that an “and yet”? I don’t recall claiming otherwise, nor does that difference ruin my point. For what it’s worth, I would say that I am uncontrollably a fan of that given team, though not inherently. Whatever outward expression someone chooses of their personal identity, it need not indicate that that outward expression is an intrinsic part of that identity. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/299 "2015-01-06T18:04:11Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Bullshit. Says who? You? QFT. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=14)