# Good for you, CNN. (edit teen suicide/gender identity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743 "2015-01-02T04:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/81 "2015-01-03T03:31:52Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > I think the conclusion here is you want to hold on to your POV and will ignore, dismiss or discredit anything anybody else says. Quoted for truth. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/82 "2015-01-03T03:54:20Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because the brain is not a sex organ and its shape or function does not determine gender. Holy crap. There’s no need for me to even try to get involved when there’s this level of “understanding.” :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/83 "2015-01-03T04:04:37Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Actually, reading through the CNN article, it seems that they were being respectful of both positions, referring to “Josh” and “him” when reporting on the parents’ perspective and “Leelah” and “her” when reporting on the teen’s perspective. I am sure that extreme partisans on both sides can object to not having their views imposed on the story, but that actually seems more respectful of both parties than choosing sides. > And it certainly stays with “facts” and “truth” better than imposing one view on the story. I don’t believe this is correct; I believe they only referred to her as Josh in direct quotes from the parents. Unless I missed a part? ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/84 "2015-01-03T04:27:59Z")
Considering that Leelah’s last post on her Tumblr page was to say “Fuck you, Mom and Dad”, I think we should accept her wishes, and not those of the parents who drove her to suicide. However, my mind keeps going to the truck driver whose truck she threw herself in front of. Is anybody thinking about him? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/85 "2015-01-03T04:50:04Z")
> [@Rick\_Kitchen](#): > > However, my mind keeps going to the truck driver whose truck she threw herself in front of. Is anybody thinking about him? Yeah, it was one of my first thoughts too. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/86 "2015-01-03T04:54:12Z")
> [@andros](#): > > Yeah, it was one of my first thoughts too. ☹ Yes I was thinking what an awful way to commit suicide, that truck driver is probably traumatized as hell and is going to agonize over this thinking how they could have avoided the collision. Especially with this story blowing up and the sad circumstances that caused the suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/87 "2015-01-03T05:01:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Suppose you are a medical examiner and the body of an unfortunate young person in a similar situation to this one winds up a John Doe on your slab. How would you go about identifying them as female? I’d look for the telltale feminine brain characteristics that will be present in such a person. > [@Smapti](#): > > If you are born with one X chromosome and one Y chromosome, you are male. That’s not how human biology works. > [@Smapti](#): > > “My roof, my rules.” Not when it kills people. > [@Smapti](#): > > If the deceased were an adult, I would not object to them using his preferred name. He wasn’t, and more over, he’s not around to read the article and be emotionally affected by it anymore; his parents, who now have to deal with being demonized by people who only know one side of the story, are. If the parents are unhappy, good. They drove their child to suicide, and continue to show contempt for her. > [@Smapti](#): > > I don’t deny that he believed himself to be female. I deny that belief trumps biology. No; you insist that belief trumps biology. Specifically, you insist that your belief trumps biology. And science. Reality is not going to reshape itself to make you happy. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/88 "2015-01-03T05:29:01Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > I don’t believe this is correct; I believe they only referred to her as Josh in direct quotes from the parents. Unless I missed a part? The first paragraph called her Josh, outside of a direct quote, but the rest of the article always referred to her in the feminine, or at most gender neutral (calling her their ‘child’, ‘the teen’ and avoiding pronouns), and as Leelah, except when directly quoting her mother. (Unless I also missed something.) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e79b87/32.png) [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Joker_and_the_Thief)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/89 "2015-01-03T05:45:40Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’d look for the telltale feminine brain characteristics that will be present in such a person. Please elaborate on this psuedoscientific bullshit. > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > That’s not how human biology works. To what extent can a person will themselves to become someone they were not? I ask this because tumblr-wackos are pioneering the ideas of “transethnic” and “otherkin”. Can a person will themselves to be a mailbox? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/90 "2015-01-03T06:03:42Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > Because the brain is not a sex organ and its shape or function does not determine gender. From the journal _Nature_, [Brain development: The most important sexual organ](http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v427/n6973/full/427390a.html). ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/91 "2015-01-03T06:13:54Z")
**Smapti** , you appear to be literally saying that you would refuse to call someone what they wish to be called if you didn’t consider it accurate – _even if you knew for sure that refusing to go along with it would result in their suicide_. Is that really what you’re saying? The consequences on the one hand are maybe you feel that you misused a pronoun. The consequences on the other hand are _someone dies_. How can you possibly think one is more important than the other? I’ve got a daughter who swaps her pronouns every other sentence. By your standard, she’s Ted Bundy. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/92 "2015-01-03T06:24:34Z")
> [@tim314](#): > > **Smapti** , you appear to be literally saying that you would refuse to call someone what they wish to be called if you didn’t consider it accurate – _even if you knew for sure that refusing to go along with it would result in their suicide_. Is that really what you’re saying? None of us have the right to insist that reality alter itself to what would make us personally happy. > [@](#): > > The consequences on the one hand are maybe you feel that you misused a pronoun. The consequences on the other hand are _someone dies_. How can you possibly think one is more important than the other? I’m not comfortable being a liar. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/93 "2015-01-03T06:27:03Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Please elaborate on this psuedoscientific bullshit. . . . Thanks for poisoning the well. I would also have liked to have had more clarification of this, as it’s something I don’t know about, but I now have to go out of my way to dissociate myself from the ugly way you phrased it. ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/94 "2015-01-03T06:29:24Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > Thanks for poisoning the well. I would also have liked to have had more clarification of this, as it’s something I don’t know about, but I now have to go out of my way to dissociate myself from the ugly way you phrased it. Yea I was going to ask if any medical examiner does MRIs of cadaver brains looking for such, but oh well. ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/95 "2015-01-03T06:32:59Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > None of us have the right to insist that reality alter itself to what would make us personally happy. Asking someone to call you X instead of Y isn’t “insisting reality alter itself”, regardless of the values of X and Y. > [@](#): > > I’m not comfortable being a liar. Are you more comfortable being a liar or driving someone to suicide? It’s not a hypothetical – this is the choice Leelah’s parents faced: Go along with what _they_ considered a lie, or insist on the “truth” (as they saw it), and have their kid kill herself. Maybe they can claim ignorance, that they didn’t know how it would all end… but you seem to be saying that given that same choice, knowing where that path lead, you’d still do what they did. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/96 "2015-01-03T06:33:55Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > None of us have the right to insist that reality alter itself to what would make us personally happy. You’re right, religion _should_ be banned. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/97 "2015-01-03T07:34:53Z")
> [@The\_Joker\_and\_the\_Thief](#): > > Please elaborate on this psuedoscientific bullshit. You have an interesting idea of [pseudoscientific](http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn20032-transsexual-differences-caught-on-brain-scan.html). Yes, this is a new area of research - although post mortem examinations have previously revealed differences - but it’s not particularly controversial. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/98 "2015-01-03T07:59:04Z")
Let’s not kid ourselves and pretend a coroner is going to perform an MRI on a cadaver to determine it’s sex. * * * Maybe it’s a generational thing, in fact I know it’s a generational thing, but I learned in college that sex refers to your biological organs and gender is a social construct reflective of your behavior. I.E. if you have a penis but wear dresses and carry a purse your sex is male and your gender is female. I was never entirely happy with these definitions, particularly since it only seems prevalent on college campuses among bleeding-heart liberal professors, but I kind of wish we would all just adopt and accept them so as to avoid the kind of debate that has been raging in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 8:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/99 "2015-01-03T08:41:39Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Maybe it’s a generational thing, in fact I know it’s a generational thing, but I learned in college that sex refers to your biological organs and gender is a social construct reflective of your behavior. > > I.E. if you have a penis but wear dresses and carry a purse your sex is male and your gender is female. I do not acknowledge a difference between the meaning of those terms. If your sex is malez then your gender is male. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 9:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/100 "2015-01-03T09:53:39Z")
I despise the word “normalcy” and can’t stand the concept of “closure” regarding tragedy or death, but I’m grown up enough to realize the rest of the society has voted differently so I have stopped stamping my food with indignation and recognized I’m an outlier. Society’s views on transgender issues has changed, and so are the definitions of certain words. It’s not about what you “ackonwledge”, it’s about how the rest of society views the social issues involved. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=6)