# Good for you, CNN. (edit teen suicide/gender identity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743 "2015-01-02T04:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/141 "2015-01-03T16:47:25Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Depending on the situation? Potentially the continuation of depression, social alienation, and any of the conditions I listed above. _Pretty substantial shit._ What harms were caused by letting that 10-year-old “boy” (because, let’s be clear, this is what we’re talking about here, people whose _gender_ is not the same as their sex) correctly self-identify as a girl? The harm is, he turns 14, hits puberty, and wants to be a man, but his name is Emma, he plays tennis and soccer and basketball on the girls’ teams, and he pees sitting down. (That last one is, admittedly, easy to correct.) And he screams at his parents: what the fuck is wrong with you?! I was 10! I was a 10-year-old boy! Why couldn’t I just wear nightshirts around the house and play with makeup?! Now the whole world thinks I’m a girl! That’s the harm. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/142 "2015-01-03T16:49:43Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The harm is, he turns 14, hits puberty, and wants to be a man, but his name is Emma, he plays tennis and soccer and basketball on the girls’ teams, and he pees sitting down. (That last one is, admittedly, easy to correct.) > > And he screams at his parents: what the fuck is wrong with you?! I was 10! I was a 10-year-old boy! Why couldn’t I just wear nightshirts around the house and play with makeup?! Now the whole world thinks I’m a girl! > > That’s the harm. Tell you what. When you’re done speaking in childish hypotheticals that have absolutely no basis in reality, let me know. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/143 "2015-01-03T16:52:36Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Why the use of passive terms? The girl would be changing her own name, dressing herself, and so forth. > > Also, what do you mean by the “transition” not “taking”? They _are_ female, they aren’t changing anything except the way they present themselves. Because adults buy the clothes, sign the children up for teams, etc. Because some transition back. Are you under the impression that NO children with GID become asymptomatic? I don’t mean adults, I mean kids. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/144 "2015-01-03T16:55:39Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The harm is, he turns 14, hits puberty, and wants to be a man, but his name is Emma, he plays tennis and soccer and basketball on the girls’ teams, and he pees sitting down. (That last one is, admittedly, easy to correct.) > > And he screams at his parents: what the fuck is wrong with you?! I was 10! I was a 10-year-old boy! Why couldn’t I just wear nightshirts around the house and play with makeup?! Now the whole world thinks I’m a girl! > > That’s the harm. I agree that such steps aren’t to be done lightly. They should be considered in consult with a family therapist or doctor. But that’s true of any major treatment: you wouldn’t put your kid on ADD meds, treat them for autism or take out their appendix on a whim either. But that doesn’t mean you don’t do it, you do it in conjunction with expert advice and family support. All parties are included, invested and part of the process. Because it might be done poorly means it shouldn’t be done at all? I also agree that many kids are exploring what it means to be male or female without the 100% certainty that they are transgendered. In my day I was a tomboyish girl. Today I might have explored if that I meant I was really a girl or not. With a little support and latitude kids can do some healthy identity exploring that includes gender identity and come to conclusions that work for them. It’s really ok. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/145 "2015-01-03T16:58:38Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I’m not referring to hormones or surgery. I’m saying changing a boy’s name, dressing him in girls’ clothes, putting him on girls’ teams, etc. can introduce long-range harms, especially if the transition doesn’t “take.” > > Are you suggesting NO children with Gender Identity Disorder outgrow it or become asymptomatic? Because some do. Why? And I mean this–Genderfluid kids do transition back and forth sometimes. You seem worried that some kid is going to transition MtF, decide it’s not right for him, and then when he goes back to his dude-bro buddies be derided. It really doesn’t seem to work that way: a genderfluid kid is not likely to end up being a person so fixed in their gender identity that a period spent openly identifying as the other gender will fill him forever with shame and horror. Again, I think you are imagining how this would play out in the world of 20 years ago. This isn’t that world. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/146 "2015-01-03T17:00:27Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Because adults buy the clothes, sign the children up for teams, etc. Not without input from the child. Are you seriously saying that children shouldn’t be allowed to express their true gender because some parents might be forcing cisgendered children to express otherwise? > [@](#): > > Because some transition back. Are you under the impression that NO children with GID become asymptomatic? I don’t mean adults, I mean kids. I’m under the impression that gender isn’t mutable, and that almost all people, including transgender, know their true gender from a very young age. But even if I’m wrong about this, there would be no harm in people transitioning more than once, at least prior to any surgery. But to give a straight answer yes, I am under the impression that no children with GID become asymptomatic. Either their gender is different from their sex, or it isn’t, and they were misdiagnosed. If you know otherwise, please cite it, rather than keep making unsubstantiated suggestions that children’s gender is fluid. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/147 "2015-01-03T17:02:33Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why? And I mean this–Genderfluid kids do transition back and forth sometimes. You seem worried that some kid is going to transition MtF, decide it’s not right for him, and then when he goes back to his dude-bro buddies be derided. It really doesn’t seem to work that way: a genderfluid kid is not likely to end up being a person so fixed in their gender identity that a period spent openly identifying as the other gender will fill him forever with shame and horror. Again, I think you are imagining how this would play out in the world of 20 years ago. This isn’t that world. What _is_ genderfluidity? I’ve never really heard of it, and it somewhat goes against what I have heard… Not that I’m denying it exists or whatever, but I’d like to know more. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/148 "2015-01-03T17:06:29Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Tell you what. When you’re done speaking in childish hypotheticals that have absolutely no basis in reality, let me know. Except that the MAJORITY of children with GID cease to want to transition by PUBERTY. > **[Gender dysphoria in children](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder_in_children)** > > Gender dysphoria in children (GD), also known as gender incongruence of childhood, is a formal diagnosis for distress (gender dysphoria) caused by incongruence between assigned sex and gender identity in some pre-pubescent transgender and gender diverse children. > The diagnosis Gender dysphoria in children is defined in the 5th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), and Gender incongruence of childhood is defined in the 11th edition of the International C... ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/149 "2015-01-03T17:09:17Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Why? And I mean this–Genderfluid kids do transition back and forth sometimes. You seem worried that some kid is going to transition MtF, decide it’s not right for him, and then when he goes back to his dude-bro buddies be derided. It really doesn’t seem to work that way: a genderfluid kid is not likely to end up being a person so fixed in their gender identity that a period spent openly identifying as the other gender will fill him forever with shame and horror. Again, I think you are imagining how this would play out in the world of 20 years ago. This isn’t that world. No, it’s because most GID kids are not transsexuals. > **[Gender dysphoria in children](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder_in_children)** > > Gender dysphoria in children (GD), also known as gender incongruence of childhood, is a formal diagnosis for distress (gender dysphoria) caused by incongruence between assigned sex and gender identity in some pre-pubescent transgender and gender diverse children. > The diagnosis Gender dysphoria in children is defined in the 5th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), and Gender incongruence of childhood is defined in the 11th edition of the International C... ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/150 "2015-01-03T17:15:49Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > No, it’s because most GID kids are not transsexuals. > [Gender dysphoria in children - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder_in_children) And that justifies preventing people from expressing their gender identity how, exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/151 "2015-01-03T17:16:49Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > It conveys useful information about who they are, how they feel about themselves, and how they wish to be treated. What information? Who is a female? How does a female fundamentally feel about themselves and how they wish to be treated that is not defined by their body status? I sincerely don’t understand what you, or most of you, consider males or females to _be_ at this point. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/152 "2015-01-03T17:20:14Z")
YES, to answer the question, some kids “transition back.” This is no secret. SOME kids do. And again, we have folks on the anti-transgender side speaking mainly from Google searches and Wikipedia. Transgender kids go through years of counseling, as do their parents. Years and years. The decision to go through puberty blockers is not made lightly nor without seeing consistent, persistent, and insistent evidence for years that the child is indeed transgender. I know of many kids who were denied puberty blockers because of expressing doubt just once. This stuff is not done on a whim. Some folks almost think kids go to a vending machine and just buy a bottle of estradiol or testosterone syrettes. And with some notable exceptions (largely/exclusively for intersex teens), no one in America goes through SRS until they are a consenting adult (some exceptions also exist for emancipated minors). Again, there is this boogeyman that somehow treating a transgender 12-year-old as their proper mental gender has set them suddenly down this irreversible path towards surgery. It is not the case. And **Manda Jo** is absolutely correct. The kids of today are not the kids of 20 years ago. I go to the high schools and meet with them and their peers, face to face and in groups. I’m stunned at the large level of acceptance for non-traditional sexualities and genders. The first time I spoke to a GSA group I was moved to _tears_ by the stories the kids told me of the acceptance and welcoming of their peers in school. It really is a difference world now in high schools, and I don’t pretend to fully understand it, but what I see gives me hope. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/153 "2015-01-03T17:21:15Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Not without input from the child. Are you seriously saying that children shouldn’t be allowed to express their true gender because some parents might be forcing cisgendered children to express otherwise? > > I’m under the impression that gender isn’t mutable, and that almost all people, including transgender, know their true gender from a very young age. But even if I’m wrong about this, there would be no harm in people transitioning more than once, at least prior to any surgery. > > But to give a straight answer yes, I am under the impression that no children with GID become asymptomatic. Either their gender is different from their sex, or it isn’t, and they were misdiagnosed. If you know otherwise, please cite it, rather than keep making unsubstantiated suggestions that children’s gender is fluid. Our friends at Wikipedia say MOST kids with GID cease wanting to switch genders at puberty. They end up gay and lesbian. > **[Gender dysphoria in children](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder_in_children)** > > Gender dysphoria in children (GD), also known as gender incongruence of childhood, is a formal diagnosis for distress (gender dysphoria) caused by incongruence between assigned sex and gender identity in some pre-pubescent transgender and gender diverse children. > The diagnosis Gender dysphoria in children is defined in the 5th edition of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM), and Gender incongruence of childhood is defined in the 11th edition of the International C... ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/154 "2015-01-03T17:22:18Z")
This video was made by a very close friend of mine - she lives just down the road. I’ve met her daughter many times, shoot we had Christmas together once. This video can help some who have questions understand a bit of what it’s really like to be the parent of a transgender child. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/-oIuw3yIyhI/hqdefault.jpg "Debi Jackson reading "That's Good Enough"") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oIuw3yIyhI) ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/155 "2015-01-03T17:26:46Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Except that the MAJORITY of children with GID cease to want to transition by PUBERTY. > [Gender dysphoria in children - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder_in_children) The only cite for that claim is a study from 1986 that involved 44 children. Do you have anything else to support your claims? Gender Identity Disorder in Children isn’t even a DSM diagnosis anymore, so I hesitate to rely on a very small study from 28 years ago as the final word. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/156 "2015-01-03T17:38:30Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > And despite all the remaining words, this contains the fault in your argument. > > You assume that children choose their gender. Or I guess by implication that anyone chooses their gender. > > Your entire argument is based on a false assumption. Your gender chooses YOU. YOU do not choose YOUR gender. Anyone who did actually wake up one day and say “hey, I think I’ll be a girl for a while, that sounds like a lark!” is playing a game or delusional. > > Transgender kids present as being _insistent, persistent, and consistent_ about their gender identity. I cannot even begin to explain the lengths to which they will go to try to be the gender they are. None of them chose it - most of the ones I work with will be in tears of it, begging us for help at the counseling center. They beg us for a drug, counseling, a “shot”, an operation - anything so they won’t be transgender. Kids are very sensitive to peer pressure, and most of them do NOT want to be the class “freak”, the one who is mocked, threatened, beaten. > > Genderfluid kids are a bit different, but they are not switching back and forth to spite society or play a game. They honestly do not know for certain what they are. They come to us and most of them want desperately not to feel that way. Again, they ask for anything they can do or any treatment to make them normal. To make them not stand out. To stop the pain they feel inside. > > You speak a lot about experience with children. How many transgender children have you counseled? More than 0? I’ve helped more than I can count, person to person, working with them and their parents. If you saw, spoke to, and worked for some time with any of them, you would feel completely different about it. The most compelling argument for the reality is to work with the kids themselves. Fine. If you don’t like the word “choose”, use “define.” I have counseled, one on one, about 10 transgendered kids over the last decade and a half. I’ve had more as students. We totally agree they should be loved, nurtured, educated, and respected. My unforgivable sin is that I advocate waiting until adulthood to change genders. I’m ok with that. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/157 "2015-01-03T17:38:52Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What information? Who is a female? How does a female fundamentally feel about themselves and how they wish to be treated that is not defined by their body status? I sincerely don’t understand what you, or most of you, consider males or females to _be_ at this point. For the vast majority of people gender identity is very simple. It’s exactly what we have always thought it to be. For the small fraction of people for whom it’s more complex the simplest, safest and most effective path is to take their word for who they are. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/158 "2015-01-03T17:43:45Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > The only cite for that claim is a study from 1986 that involved 44 children. Do you have anything else to support your claims? Gender Identity Disorder in Children isn’t even a DSM diagnosis anymore, so I hesitate to rely on a very small study from 28 years ago as the final word. Nope. That’s all I got. But I eagerly await your evidence that gender dysmorphic kids inevitably become transsexual adults. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/159 "2015-01-03T17:49:24Z")
I somehow fail to see the problems - names and labels are as arbitrary as arbitrary gets, so if Leelah wanted to called Leelah… what difference does it make? Is somebody getting defrauded or identity-thieved or something? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/160 "2015-01-03T17:52:49Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > We’re talking about gender identity, not sexual preference. Tell **Steophon** that. He brought it up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=9)