# Good for you, CNN. (edit teen suicide/gender identity) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 2, 2015, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743 "2015-01-02T04:16:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/161 "2015-01-03T17:53:35Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Except that the MAJORITY of children with GID cease to want to transition by PUBERTY. > [Gender dysphoria in children - Wikipedia](http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder_in_children) Okay. > [@](#): > > According to limited studies, the majority of children diagnosed with GID cease to desire to be the other sex by puberty, with most growing up to identify as gay or lesbian with or without therapeutic intervention.[3] What is that citation 3? " Green, R. (1987). The sissy boy syndrome. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press." A book. In the popular press. Which I have no access to, that’s decades out of date. Further down, it cites [this paper](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/eat.10247/abstract;jsessionid=50DC11CD682E824A005800BDFA7B960E.f04t04), which seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the claim made in the paragraph, and another one I cannot access beyond the abstract, where the abstract again makes no claims to support this assertion. Got anything a little more concrete? And even beyond that, your hypothetical is not childish merely because the claim therein is bogus. It’s also childish because the _response of the child_ is ridiculous. “You listened to me showing symptoms of a severe mental disorder and supported me. What kind of moron are you?!” Or maybe the parent is the one who’s both childishly stupid and woefully idiotic, and heard their kid say once, “I want to be a girl” and took that to mean it’s time to throw out the baseball glove and bring out the barbie dolls? Your hypothetical is bad and you should feel bad. And the fact that you’re responsible for counseling trans kids is _really_ iffy. You should consider passing those cases on to someone slightly more qualified to handle them. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/162 "2015-01-03T18:00:03Z")
> [@IvoryTowerDenizen](#): > > For the vast majority of people gender identity is very simple. It’s exactly what we have always thought it to be. > > For the small fraction of people for whom it’s more complex the simplest, safest and most effective path is to take their word for who they are. But what does that mean? What _are_ males and females? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/163 "2015-01-03T18:05:46Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > But what does that mean? What _are_ males and females? Beyond recognizing the need for reproduction, I don’t know why anyone should really care. I know what type of human I like to have sex with, but beyond that… ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/164 "2015-01-03T18:25:01Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Tell **Steophon** that. He brought it up. Where did I bring up sexual preference? It appears I might be mistaken about gender being settled from birth. I still don’t think it matters either way. I’m well aware that there’s plenty I don’t know about this subject - hell, up until a few years ago I had basically the same views as **Smapti** and it’s mainly through reading stuff here, and linked from here, that I realised I was wrong. I’m sure I have much more to learn. But what is clear is that forcing people to pretend to be a gender other than their own, even at a young age, causes serious mental damage and can lead to suicide. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/165 "2015-01-03T18:25:43Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Okay. > > What is that citation 3? > > " Green, R. (1987). The sissy boy syndrome. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press." > > A book. In the popular press. Which I have no access to, that’s decades out of date. > > Further down, it cites [this paper](http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/eat.10247/abstract;jsessionid=50DC11CD682E824A005800BDFA7B960E.f04t04), which seems to have absolutely nothing to do with the claim made in the paragraph, and another one I cannot access beyond the abstract, where the abstract again makes no claims to support this assertion. > > Got anything a little more concrete? > > And even beyond that, your hypothetical is not childish merely because the claim therein is bogus. It’s also childish because the _response of the child_ is ridiculous. “You listened to me showing symptoms of a severe mental disorder and supported me. What kind of moron are you?!” Or maybe the parent is the one who’s both childishly stupid and woefully idiotic, and heard their kid say once, “I want to be a girl” and took that to mean it’s time to throw out the baseball glove and bring out the barbie dolls? Your hypothetical is bad and you should feel bad. > > And the fact that you’re responsible for counseling trans kids is _really_ iffy. You should consider passing those cases on to someone slightly more qualified to handle them. You don’t like my evidence? I eagerly await your studies that show that Gender Dysmorphic kids inevitably grow up to be transsexual. My hypothetical is bad, but strangely, I feel awesome! Weird, huh? I am not a counselor. I am a social studies teacher, not a clinician. The kids I’ve counseled have been when they privately came to me, informally. I did not mean to leave the impression that I provide therapy to LGBTT? kids or any others in an official capacity. I do not. But I am well-equipped to direct students to school and town resources, and to serve as an ally. I really don’t understand how my advocacy of compassion, acceptance, and accommodation (but waiting until 18 for transitioning) is viewed as cruel and misguided. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/166 "2015-01-03T18:28:02Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > What _is_ genderfluidity? I’ve never really heard of it, and it somewhat goes against what I have heard… Not that I’m denying it exists or whatever, but I’d like to know more. My understanding is that these are people who are ambivalent about their gender identity. I certainly think that kids today are open to the idea of ambivalence. Twenty years ago–hell, ten years ago–the only kids who identified as transgendered were the really, really unambiguous ones. If you could _endure_ to externally identify with your physical sex, you did, because all the other courses of action carried such painful consequences or were literally unthinkable. But now the world is different, and I think there are a lot more complex gender identities that are now being addressed. You see the same thing with sexual orientation: used to be someone who was capable of identifying as straight, who could live a full life as heterosexual, who was fully capable of finding romantic and sexual satisfaction in a hetero-normal framework, did. Nowadays, a lot of people growing up in a really different world and do not always avoid acting on attractions that might be outside their normal pattern. I do think that some of the language used twenty years ago suggested that gender identity and sexual orientation were always clear and unambiguous to the individuals involved. I think this was both to head off the argument that atypical gender identification or sexual orientation was a whim or a choice (“experimented in college”) and also because that was the experience of people at the forefront of the changes. I do worry that this sends the message to some kids who are experiencing ambivalence that that is somehow wrong. Because some really are. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/167 "2015-01-03T18:30:48Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > What information? Who is a female? How does a female fundamentally feel about themselves and how they wish to be treated that is not defined by their body status? I sincerely don’t understand what you, or most of you, consider males or females to _be_ at this point. You know what? I don’t really _understand_ it either. I feel male, I _am_ male, and my body looks male. I have no idea what it would be like to feel otherwise, to feel a different gender or to have a different body. But you know what? That doesn’t matter. What matters is that certain people _do_ feel differently, that for them to be, well, not even comfortable but to cope at all, they need to express a certain gender. It’s been shown that this need is a stronger force than the sex organs, hormones, chromosomes and so forth, that even with all of those pointing one way their gender can still be different. You don’t need to understand _why_ people feel that way, just accept that they do. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/168 "2015-01-03T18:35:03Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > You don’t like my evidence? I eagerly await your studies that show that Gender Dysmorphic kids inevitably grow up to be transsexual. > > My hypothetical is bad, but strangely, I feel awesome! Weird, huh? > > I am not a counselor. I am a social studies teacher, not a clinician. The kids I’ve counseled have been when they privately came to me, informally. I did not mean to leave the impression that I provide therapy to LGBTT? kids or any others in an official capacity. I do not. But I am well-equipped to direct students to school and town resources, and to serve as an ally. > > I really don’t understand how my advocacy of compassion, acceptance, and accommodation (but waiting until 18 for transitioning) is viewed as cruel and misguided. What do you mean by “acceptance and accommodation”? I mean, if you have a kid who is determined to dress a certain way, only responds to a certain name/pronoun set, only willingly participates in certain activities under a given identity, and you refuse to allow any of that, doesn’t that turn every day into a power struggle? Every morning a fight over what they can wear out of the house? Every weekend spent sullenly in their room? Every calling them to dinner a fight? ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/169 "2015-01-03T18:36:48Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Monozygotic twin studies do not support this claim. Identical genetics != identical biology. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/170 "2015-01-03T18:38:30Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And you’re still calling it a decision - it is no more her decision to be female than it’s yours whether you’re **gay or straight.** **Steophan** , this is where you brought up sexual preference. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/171 "2015-01-03T18:43:48Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > What do you mean by “acceptance and accommodation”? I mean, if you have a kid who is determined to dress a certain way, only responds to a certain name/pronoun set, only willingly participates in certain activities under a given identity, and you refuse to allow any of that, doesn’t that turn every day into a power struggle? Every morning a fight over what they can wear out of the house? Every weekend spent sullenly in their room? Every calling them to dinner a fight? Why would any of this happen? Accommodate him at home. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/172 "2015-01-03T18:54:29Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > Why would any of this happen? Accommodate him at home. Because she (or he, as the case may be) wants to gets her hair cut a certain way, leave the house dressed a certain way, introduces themselves to their friends a certain way, etc. If you forbid that, it’ll be a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/173 "2015-01-03T18:58:52Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You know what? I don’t really _understand_ it either. I feel male, I _am_ male, and my body looks male. I have no idea what it would be like to feel otherwise, to feel a different gender or to have a different body. > > But you know what? That doesn’t matter. What matters is that certain people _do_ feel differently, that for them to be, well, not even comfortable but to cope at all, they need to express a certain gender. It’s been shown that this need is a stronger force than the sex organs, hormones, chromosomes and so forth, that even with all of those pointing one way their gender can still be different. > > You don’t need to understand _why_ people feel that way, just accept that they do. I honestly understand this less than I did when the thread started. What does it mean to “feel male”? What is a male? What do males feel like? How do you know if what you feel like is male? ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/174 "2015-01-03T19:07:11Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Because she (or he, as the case may be) wants to gets her hair cut a certain way, leave the house dressed a certain way, introduces themselves to their friends a certain way, etc. If you forbid that, it’ll be a fight. I don’t think you know what “accommodate” means. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/175 "2015-01-03T19:10:55Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t think you know what “accommodate” means. I was just thinking the same thing about you. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/176 "2015-01-03T19:11:07Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > I don’t think you know what “accommodate” means. It can mean all sorts of things. That’s why I asked you what you meant, and you haven’t answered. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/177 "2015-01-03T19:20:57Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > It can mean all sorts of things. That’s why I asked you what you meant, and you haven’t answered. However you define it, I agree. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/178 "2015-01-03T19:25:03Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > **Steophan** , this is where you brought up sexual preference. Ah ok, I thought you were suggesting I was conflating gender and sexuality. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/179 "2015-01-03T19:29:55Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > However you define it, I agree. Why are you being contrary about this? I wasn’t being confrontational, I was honestly curious. I’m a teacher, too. We have a transgendered kid right now. Fortunately, his parents and he and the school are all on the same page–he identifies as male, dresses as male, is called by a male name, and it seems to be going smoothly. I actually think he’s a little ambivalent, due to a variety of things, but I don’t see why letting him identify as male _outside the house_ is a terrible thing. If he decides later to transition back, we will roll with it. I honestly feel like his community can cope with that–it won’t leave him tainted, it won’t be a big deal that for a while “everyone thought I was a boy!”. It seems like it would be much worse to treat this as a secret that has to be kept in the house until a certain age. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2015, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743/180 "2015-01-03T19:34:39Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I honestly understand this less than I did when the thread started. What does it mean to “feel male”? What is a male? What do males feel like? How do you know if what you feel like is male? Because my feelings and identity largely fit with societal ideas of maleness. I couldn’t identify something in myself that makes me intrinsically male apart from the physicality. _But_, it’s clear some people can, and do, identify such a thing, and wish to outwardly appear and be treated by society as a gender other than the one their physical form would suggest. I’ve no idea why some people feel that way, but the fact that they do - along with the scientific evidence that it’s psychologically consistent and biologically based in the brain - is enough for me to believe that the feeling is real, and to respect it. So, for you, what is it to be male? Is it just your genitalia, or are there a set of expectations about how you will act, and dress, and how people will react to you? Do you have certain ways of looking at things that are more stereotypically masculine? Gender comprises all those things. I honestly don’t know if it’s purely a social construct, or whether it’s completely innate, or a mixture of both, but my guess would be the mixture. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-for-you-cnn-edit-teen-suicide-gender-identity/708743.md?page=10)