# Good Guy with a gun, fallacy or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2016, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501 "2016-06-16T06:41:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/101 "2016-06-20T05:11:00Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > I suppose it is debatable whether the bar restriction ends up reducing or increasing shootings overall, but I am highly skeptical because it is exceedingly logical and evident that criminals/terrorists/lunatics don’t give a shit about laws and restrictions, unlike everyday Joes. Two things. Firstly, making guns illegal and harder to obtain makes it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns. You know why Oldboy has a scene where the protagonist murders a bunch of guys with a hammer? Because it’s _really hard to get guns in South Korea_. Even if you can find them, they are prohibitively expensive and risky, making it downright unreasonable for your average day-to-day mobster to own one. Secondly, making guns illegal makes it clear that if you’re carrying a gun and you aren’t in uniform, you’re likely to be dangerous and people should watch out. Even if you’re willing to break the law in other ways, just owning the gun makes it clear that you have, in fact, broken the law, and informs other people about this. Owning a gun becomes a liability to your plans with said gun, not just a normal part of being in society. > [@Orwell](#): > > How is that accomplished? Recent mass shootings in France, London, Brussels, Chicago and elsewhere where gun laws are stringent strongly indicate that laws do nothing to persuade nutjobs from willingly breaking gun laws as a preliminary step in their murderous carnage. You do realize that in the USA, we have mass shootings at a rate of about one per day, whereas when they have one, it tends to make the news because this shit just doesn’t happen there all that often? Also, nowhere in the USA counts as having “stringent gun laws”, because no matter where you are, you can drive across the country with no checks on your behavior, pick up a gun at the gun show in Redneck, AR with absolutely no checks or oversight, and drive back, again, with no checks on your behavior whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/102 "2016-06-20T06:19:02Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Because **spamforbrains** claimed the rate would rise and has risen. However, **MEBuckner** primarily attempted to refute **spamforbrains** by arguing that concealed-carry caused crime rates to fall. See, e.g., > [@MEBuckner](#): > > Over the course of the late 1980s, the 90s, and the early 21st century, the U.S. went from having fewer than ten (mostly low-population) states where a law-abiding person could expect to be issued a concealed carry permit as a matter of course, to the current situation where over 40 states with over two-thirds of the U.S. population are “shall issue”; or in several states, “constitutional carry”, meaning no permit is required to carry a concealed firearm. > > All of which happened during the same time that the murder rate was cut in half, and crime in general is down across the board. In reality, the murder rate was cut mostly before CCW, as was the biggest part of the decline in crime generally. > [@Bone](#): > > Do you have a cite for the demographic of CCW holders? I’ve not seen nationwide statistics on CCW demographics particularly, but nationwide gun owner demographics (see, e.g., [Gallup polls](http://www.gallup.com/poll/160223/men-married-southerners-likely-gun-owners.aspx)) show the group with the highest gun ownership rate is white men, aged 50+, married and from the South. State-level statistics on CCW are available for at least some states, and show similar patterns. In [Texas](http://dps.texas.gov/rsd/chl/reports/demoreportscy15.htm), for example, 61% of licenses issued went to white males; while they had issued licenses to people aged 18 to 98, the most common ages were in the 40s and 50s. In [Arizona,](http://www.azdps.gov/Services/Concealed_Weapons/Statistics/) a similar pattern holds: about two-thirds of CCW permit holders are males over the age of 40, more than 90% of them white. In [Oklahoma](https://www.ok.gov/osbi/documents/2015%20SDA%20ANNUAL%20REPORT.pdf), the average age of a new CCW licensee was 49. Two-thirds were male, and 88% were white. In [Florida](http://www.freshfromflorida.com/content/download/7500/118857/cw_holders.pdf), the largest demographic among permit holders was men aged 51-65, closely followed by men aged 66+; three-quarters of all permit holders were male. ---
**Author:** ![Orwell](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/dfb087/32.png) [@Orwell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orwell)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/103 "2016-06-20T13:33:26Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > You do realize that in the USA, we have mass shootings at a rate of about one per day, whereas when they have one, it tends to make the news because this shit just doesn’t happen there all that often? Not even close to being true. I don’t even have to go to moderate or conservative sources to refute this ridiculous claim. > **[No, There Has Not Been a Mass Shooting Every Day This Year](https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/no-there-were-not-355-mass-shootings-this-year/)** > > This inflated stat all over the media isn't just misleading—it's stirring undue fear. > **[Home - Truth in Media](https://truthinmedia.com)** > > Trending Stories > [@](#): > > Also, nowhere in the USA counts as having “stringent gun laws”, because no matter where you are, you can drive across the country with no checks on your behavior, pick up a gun at the gun show in Redneck, AR with absolutely no checks or oversight, and drive back, again, with no checks on your behavior whatsoever. The vast majority of gun sales at gun shows are by FFL licensed sellers, and include a federal background check. I have been to dozens of gun shows, and have bought several guns, and have never done so without a background check. Yes, it happens. but it is relatively infrequent. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/104 "2016-06-20T15:04:08Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Also, nowhere in the USA counts as having “stringent gun laws”, because no matter where you are, you can drive across the country with no checks on your behavior, pick up a gun at the gun show in Redneck, AR with absolutely no checks or oversight, and drive back, again, with no checks on your behavior whatsoever. So the idea is, a person can commit multiple felonies and that means there aren’t stringent gun laws? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/105 "2016-06-20T15:24:34Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > However, **MEBuckner** primarily attempted to refute **spamforbrains** by arguing that concealed-carry caused crime rates to fall. See, e.g., If the claim is that rates would rise, one avenue to show that this claim is untrue is to show the rate falling. Another way would be to show the rate is unchanged. The rate did in fact fall, some of which as you say occurred as part of a trend that began before CCW permissiveness was super widespread. That is no matter though because it is sufficient to refute the claim. > [@](#): > > I’ve not seen nationwide statistics on CCW demographics particularly, but nationwide gun owner demographics (see, e.g., [Gallup polls](http://www.gallup.com/poll/160223/men-married-southerners-likely-gun-owners.aspx)) show the group with the highest gun ownership rate is white men, aged 50+, married and from the South. > > State-level statistics on CCW are available for at least some states, and show similar patterns. In [Texas](http://dps.texas.gov/rsd/chl/reports/demoreportscy15.htm), for example, 61% of licenses issued went to white males; while they had issued licenses to people aged 18 to 98, the most common ages were in the 40s and 50s. I think this is sufficient to show that CCW holders disproportionately skew as you say. Moreso in Florida, Oklahoma, and Arizona based on their population. I’ve not seen the comparison you’re looking for, racial/age group to like racial/age groups. The idea when talking about rates of crime among CCW holders is not to say that being a CCW holder causes a person to be less inclined to commit crimes. The idea is that CCW holders self select among groups that disproportionately commit less crimes. That this happens to align with a certain racial/age band doesn’t change the conclusion. ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/106 "2016-06-20T15:58:58Z")
> [@Orwell](#): > > Not even close to being true. I don’t even have to go to moderate or conservative sources to refute this ridiculous claim. > > [No, There Has Not Been a Mass Shooting Every Day This Year – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/no-there-were-not-355-mass-shootings-this-year) > > [Home - Truth in Media](http://truthinmedia.com/fact-check-355-mass-shootings-far-2015/) Depends on how you define ‘mass shooting,’ doesn’t it? There are about 300 to 400 incidents each year in which four or more persons are shot. That’s about one a day. Now if you limit ‘mass shootings’ only to incidents in public places, or only to incidents where multiple deaths occur, then yes, the totals drop. For example, how would you classify the [movie theater shooting in Lafayette, Louisiana](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Lafayette_shooting), last year? A man starts shooting random patrons watching a movie in a public theater; he commits suicide after killing two and wounding nine–is that a mass shooting by your definition? By the “official” definition, it’s not. With “only” two victims dead, it’s not horrific enough to qualify, because the feds and many researchers use four dead (not counting perpetrator) as the minimum. Other folks would say, “yeah, eleven random people shot in a public place = mass shooting.” What would you say? > [@Orwell](#): > > The vast majority of gun sales at gun shows are by FFL licensed sellers, and include a federal background check. I have been to dozens of gun shows, and have bought several guns, and have never done so without a background check. Yes, it happens. but it is relatively infrequent. I’ve certainly seen gun shows where multiple tables were private sellers–no background check required. You even admit this happens, and nobody has statistics on how often it happens. Further, not every gun sale at the show happens on the floor of the show, and nobody has any statistics on the parking lot sales. On what basis do you assert this is “relatively infrequent”? > [@Bone](#): > > So the idea is, a person can commit multiple felonies and that means there aren’t stringent gun laws? Stringent gun laws make it very difficult to buy and possess guns. Depending on where you live and what gun you’re buying, there may or may not be ANY felonies involved here (although it would probably require a pre-1900 firearm or something else exotic for zero felonies). ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/107 "2016-06-20T16:12:14Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > If the claim is that rates would rise, one avenue to show that this claim is untrue is to show the rate falling. Another way would be to show the rate is unchanged. The rate did in fact fall, some of which as you say occurred as part of a trend that began before CCW permissiveness was super widespread. That is no matter though because it is sufficient to refute the claim. Then I think we’re going to have to disagree about exactly what **spamforbrains** was claiming. His (her?) original post, you may recall, was > [@spamforbrains](#): > > crime was declining long before concealed carry permits became a thing. And it’s not my story, it’s statistics. We’ll have to wait and see if violent crime goes up in response to concealed carry, and so far it seems to be doing so. The number of stories of these crazies shooting innocent people and each other seems to be multiplying. In other words, I’m not reading this as claiming that violent crime definitely would go up (“we’ll have to wait and see if…”), and the last point, about multiplying stories of crazies, [does seem to be true](http://fivethirtyeight.com/features/mass-shootings-have-become-more-common-in-the-u-s/). > [@Bone](#): > > I think this is sufficient to show that CCW holders disproportionately skew as you say. Moreso in Florida, Oklahoma, and Arizona based on their population. I’ve not seen the comparison you’re looking for, racial/age group to like racial/age groups. The idea when talking about rates of crime among CCW holders is not to say that being a CCW holder causes a person to be less inclined to commit crimes. The idea is that CCW holders self select among groups that disproportionately commit less crimes. That this happens to align with a certain racial/age band doesn’t change the conclusion. So we have no idea if CCW holders are more or less inclined to commit crimes than other people of their age and background, but because most holders are older white men, and older white men commit relatively few crimes of violence, we should assume that CCW holders are all honorable and upright? Please clarify that logic. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/108 "2016-06-20T16:27:22Z")
dup ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/109 "2016-06-20T16:31:48Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Also, nowhere in the USA counts as having “stringent gun laws”, because no matter where you are, you can drive across the country with no checks on your behavior, pick up a gun at the gun show in Redneck, AR with absolutely no checks or oversight, and drive back, again, with no checks on your behavior whatsoever. Also, nowhere in the USA counts as having “stringent _drug_ laws”, because no matter where you are, you can drive across the country with no checks on your behavior, pick up _drugs_ on the street in any major city with absolutely no checks or oversight, and drive back, again, with no checks on your behavior whatsoever. Except of course for the various felonies involved, no checks or oversight whatsoever. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/110 "2016-06-20T16:33:49Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > I’ve certainly seen gun shows where multiple tables were private sellers–no background check required. You even admit this happens, and nobody has statistics on how often it happens. Further, not every gun sale at the show happens on the floor of the show, and nobody has any statistics on the parking lot sales. On what basis do you assert this is “relatively infrequent”? > > . I have seen them also. Try and buy a gun, they will make you fill out the requisite forms and do a check. Parking lot sales are private parties. They are against the law in several states, including California. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/111 "2016-06-20T16:37:16Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Then I think we’re going to have to disagree about exactly what **spamforbrains** was claiming. His (her?) original post, you may recall, was > > > [@spamforbrains](#): > > > > crime was declining long before concealed carry permits became a thing. And it’s not my story, it’s statistics. We’ll have to wait and see if violent crime goes up in response to concealed carry, \*\*and so far it seems to be doing so. \*\*The number of stories of these crazies shooting innocent people and each other seems to be multiplying. (my bold) She stated it seems to be doing so. That’s false. > [@](#): > > So we have no idea if CCW holders are more or less inclined to commit crimes than other people of their age and background, but because most holders are older white men, and older white men commit relatively few crimes of violence, we should assume that CCW holders are all honorable and upright? Please clarify that logic. What we do know is that for those areas we have data, CCW holders are less inclined to commit crimes than the general population. I don’t assume that CCW holders are all honorable and upright - and I don’t think that’s the implication when talking about the relative propensity for criminal activity. CCW holders as a whole self selects and the conclusion I draw is that CCW is not a significant issue to be concerned about when it comes to people committing crime. Before the rise of shall issue CCW, the argument against it was that it would lead to increases in crime, blood in the streets, etc. This hasn’t occurred and we now have 40 states that are shall issue or constitutional carry. So what we know is that the arguments against more permissive CCW are dead. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/112 "2016-06-20T17:20:34Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Firstly, making guns illegal and harder to obtain makes it harder for criminals to get their hands on guns. You know why Oldboy has a scene where the protagonist murders a bunch of guys with a hammer? Because it’s _really hard to get guns in South Korea_. Even if you can find them, they are prohibitively expensive and risky, making it downright unreasonable for your average day-to-day mobster to own one. I fully agree: Gun-related violence would plummet significantly if guns were banned. But the 2nd Amendment is the 2nd Amendment. Until it’s abolished, it’s the law. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/113 "2016-06-20T18:11:01Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > So the idea is, a person can commit multiple felonies and that means there aren’t stringent gun laws? Which felonies? What law is broken in this process? > [@Orwell](#): > > Not even close to being true. I don’t even have to go to moderate or conservative sources to refute this ridiculous claim. > > [No, There Has Not Been a Mass Shooting Every Day This Year – Mother Jones](http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2015/12/no-there-were-not-355-mass-shootings-this-year) > > [Home - Truth in Media](http://truthinmedia.com/fact-check-355-mass-shootings-far-2015/) Oh, I’m sorry, that’s mildly hyperbolic. I suppose the real number isn’t massively outstripped by every other industrial country in the world? [http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/348197-paris-attack-claim-mass-shootings/](http://www.ijreview.com/2015/12/348197-paris-attack-claim-mass-shootings/) Well, I guess you can quibble about whether 38 “massively outstrips” 1 or 2. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/114 "2016-06-20T18:14:12Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I fully agree: Gun-related violence would plummet significantly if guns were banned. But the 2nd Amendment is the 2nd Amendment. Until it’s abolished, it’s the law. - Gun-related\* violence- maybe. But would\* violence\*? ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/115 "2016-06-20T18:23:25Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Also, nowhere in the USA counts as having “stringent _drug_ laws”, because no matter where you are, you can drive across the country with no checks on your behavior, pick up _drugs_ on the street in any major city with absolutely no checks or oversight, and drive back, again, with no checks on your behavior whatsoever. > > Except of course for the various felonies involved, no checks or oversight whatsoever. :rolleyes: Let’s unpack this, shall we? Where in the USA does openly carrying a firearm make you a target for law enforcement (assuming, for the moment, that you are white, because [African-Americans clearly play by different rules](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StrqQLQr8BA))? 8 states, 12 if we want to be generous, and the constitutionality of such laws are [currently under question](https://www.floridacarry.org/index.php/litigation-32/21-statecourt/70-norman-v-state). Where in the USA does openly carrying a baggie of crack make you a target for law enforcement? I guarantee you that if you walk around with a baggie of crystal visible on your person, you will be a target for law enforcement literally wherever you are in the country and regardless of what color your skin is. Where in the country does having an AR-15 in your trunk, unloaded, make you prosecutable, even without a license? Washington DC, and… where else? Where in the country does having a pound of weed in your trunk make you prosecutable? Everywhere except Colorado, and even there if you don’t have a license you’re in deep shit. Where in the country can you legally buy heroin without any sort of license or permission? Where in the country is it legal for you to buy cocaine with no background checks online from private collectors? Yeah, you can’t ship it over state lines, and you can’t buy it unless you’re in the same state, but it’s not exactly hard to find a way to get around the laws this way! Notice how this analogy sort of falls apart when you examine it? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/116 "2016-06-20T18:27:42Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Which felonies? What law is broken in this process? It’s a felony to: Purchase a firearm outside of your state of residence. I think this derives from 18 U.S.C. Section 922(a)(5) but that may be focused on the seller. It’s a felony to transport that firearm back to your state of residence. 18 U.S.C. Section 922(a)(3) It’s a felony to knowingly sell a firearm to a person that is not a resident of your state. 18 U.S.C. Section 922(a)(5) Depending on your home state, the possession of that firearm may be a felony. Depending on your home state, the importation of that firearm may be a felony. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/117 "2016-06-20T18:32:29Z")
> [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](#): > > Let’s unpack this, shall we? > > Where in the USA does openly carrying a firearm make you a target for law enforcement (assuming, for the moment, that you are white, because [African-Americans clearly play by different rules](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=StrqQLQr8BA))? 8 states, 12 if we want to be generous, and the constitutionality of such laws are [currently under question](https://www.floridacarry.org/index.php/litigation-32/21-statecourt/70-norman-v-state). Where in the USA does openly carrying a baggie of crack make you a target for law enforcement? I guarantee you that if you walk around with a baggie of crystal visible on your person, you will be a target for law enforcement literally wherever you are in the country and regardless of what color your skin is. > > Where in the country does having an AR-15 in your trunk, unloaded, make you prosecutable, even without a license? Washington DC, and… where else? Where in the country does having a pound of weed in your trunk make you prosecutable? Everywhere except Colorado, and even there if you don’t have a license you’re in deep shit. > > Notice how this analogy sort of falls apart when you examine it? How do they know it’s crack? I toted a large gallon sized bag of detergent, and a bag of washing soda to my laundromat , in a downtown area, with zillions of cops, and not a single one even slowed their police car down. California. They are illegal to own. Oddly in CA you can carry a oz of pot openly and be safe- you might, _might_ get a ticket. That pound? OK if you have a Medical marijuana permit, and even if not, it’s a minor misdemeanor. No, nope. Minor misdemeanor vs two Federal Felonies. Oops, wait,\* three. \* (Gotta cross a state line for yours). Maximum $500 fine vs 15 years in a Federal Pen. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/118 "2016-06-20T18:38:45Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > However, **MEBuckner** primarily attempted to refute **spamforbrains** by arguing that concealed-carry caused crime rates to fall. See, e.g., I didn’t say CCW _caused_ crime rates to fall. It’s quite mysterious what exactly caused the crime rate to go up so dramatically in the late 20th century and then start falling equally dramatically in the last years of the 20th century. So far, though, the statement (from **spamforbrains** ) that “We’ll have to wait and see if violent crime goes up in response to concealed carry, and _ **so far it seems to be doing so** _” (_ **emphasis added** _) doesn’t seem to be borne out by any actual statistics. And the statement > [@spamforbrains](#): > > this is one reason why concealed-carry permits shouldn’t be allowed. Ever. For any reason. It’s the stupidest idea I have ever heard of. Stable, reasonable people don’t get concealed-carry permits, which means only crazy superhero wannabes trigger happy people get them, which means that a lot of innocent or at least mostly innocent people are going to get shot. …Just sort of ignores that for the last thirty years or so, concealed carry has been greatly expanded in the U.S., millions of people have gotten permits, and yet the rates of murder and aggravated assault have continued to fall. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/119 "2016-06-20T18:42:04Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Purchase a firearm outside of your state of residence. I think this derives from 18 U.S.C. Section 922(a)(5) but that may be focused on the seller. [Here is what the ATF says on the matter:](https://www.atf.gov/questions-and-answers/qa/may-unlicensed-person-acquire-firearm-under-gca-any-state) > [@](#): > > Generally, a person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own State. Exceptions include the acquisition pursuant to a lawful bequest, or an over–the–counter acquisition of a rifle or shotgun from a licensee where the transaction is allowed by the purchaser’s State of residence and the licensee’s State of business. A person may borrow or rent a firearm in any State for temporary use for lawful sporting purposes. > > [18 U.S.C 922(a)(3); 27 CFR 478.29] ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501/120 "2016-06-20T19:10:18Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > I didn’t say CCW _caused_ crime rates to fall. It’s quite mysterious what exactly caused the crime rate to go up so dramatically in the late 20th century and then start falling equally dramatically in the last years of the 20th century. . One theory is leaded gas. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-guy-with-a-gun-fallacy-or-not/757501.md?page=7)