# Good incels vs bad incels **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114 "2022-06-29T14:23:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/101 "2022-06-30T03:13:21Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > And “Social Justice Warrior.” What’s wrong with fighting for social justice? The problem with this example is that most people that are labeled as SJWs are actually good people, and the people derisively labeling them that are the POSs. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/102 "2022-06-30T03:16:11Z")
> [@Jay\_Z](#): > > This is the kind of Internet parsing that doesn’t fly in the real world. These sorts of boundaries aren’t enforceable in the real world. Incel, involuntarily celibate. Yeesh. Yes these other people are incels. It’s there in the root of the word. No these other people are _not_ (necessarily) incels. “Involuntarily celibate” is not the same as “incel”. This has of course already been pointed out by others. On a separate, less important point, some in this thread have referred to involuntarily celibate people as virgins. This is incorrect. Just because one is celibate doesn’t mean they’ve never had sex. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/103 "2022-06-30T03:21:00Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > On a separate, less important point, some in this thread have referred to involuntarily celibate people as virgins. This is incorrect. Just because one is celibate doesn’t mean they’ve never had sex. Yeah, I had a girlfriend who I dated because I was desperate for affection. We had nothing in common. After I did the right thing and broke up (she was dating again within a week or so), no sex for most of the next decade. That was certainly involuntary, but I wasn’t a virgin. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/104 "2022-06-30T03:24:11Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > The problem with this example is that most people that are labeled as SJWs are actually good people, and the people derisively labeling them that are the POSs. I don’t see why it’s a problem for the example. As with virtue signaling, the fact that it’s often used by shits and the the allegation is often unjust does not change the negative _meaning_ of the epithet, any more than QAnon fools calling Democrat leaders pedophile cannibals changes the meaning of the words pedophile or cannibal. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/105 "2022-06-30T03:26:11Z")
Because “what’s wrong with wanting social justice?” is accurate. However, if you said “what’s wrong with being involuntarily celibate?” there’s true negativity associate with it vs completely made up negativity. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/106 "2022-06-30T03:31:39Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Because “what’s wrong with wanting social justice?” is accurate. But here you’re making the exact same error that the example was brought up to illustrate. Of course there is nothing wrong with fighting for social justice. But that is not relevant to meaning of the established idiom “social justice warrior”, which does not _just_ mean fighting for social justice. It is pejorative. [Social justice warrior - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior) > _ **Social justice warrior** _ ( **SJW** ) is a pejorative term… The accusation that somebody is an SJW carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction… The fact that we might not _like_ the fact that this word exists with this meaning is not relevant to its objective semantic content, which is established by usage. It is no more relevant to objective meaning than people complaining about the modern evolution of the word “literally”. Well, that’s not quite true. In the case of SJW there’s a case for an ideologically-driven movement to reclaim the word from the shits. But that has to actually happen and reach a critical mass of usage for any claim that the word has some other meaning to be objectively valid. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/107 "2022-06-30T03:38:34Z")
No, I’m not making that mistake. One instance of “what is wrong with X” is absolutely correct and one isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/108 "2022-06-30T03:44:31Z")
If you don’t understand why your opinion (which I share) about whether fighting for social justice is correct is irrelevant to what this specific expression objectively means then you’re absolutely making that mistake. If you attempt to _compliment_ someone for their efforts to promote social justice by calling them a SJW the result will most likely be confusion, since the term is pejorative. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/109 "2022-06-30T03:46:45Z")
And if you don’t understand that there’s a difference between a pejorative that is earned and one that is complete bullshit, then I don’t know what to tell you. Lots of people use “feminist” as a pejorative, but that just means they’re an asshole. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/110 "2022-06-30T03:53:10Z")
> [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > Lots of people use “feminist” as a pejorative, but that just means they’re an asshole. There is no parallel here, the word “feminist” is not inherently pejorative. > [@Snarky\_Kong](#): > > And if you don’t understand that there’s a difference between a pejorative that is earned and one that is complete bullshit, then I don’t know what to tell you. The issue here is that I’m making a claim the objective reality of what the word means, established by usage, and you keep just saying that you don’t like it. I’m not claiming that the fact the alt-right coopted this expression is a good thing that I like. I’m just not denying the reality of the fact that it happened. Again, > [@Riemann](#): > > there’s a case for an ideologically-driven movement to reclaim the word from the shits. But that has to actually happen and reach a critical mass of usage for any claim that the word has some other meaning to be objectively valid. Unless that happens, if you attempt to use SJW in a complimentary manner you will simply be misunderstood. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/111 "2022-06-30T03:58:42Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’m not claiming that the fact the alt-right coopted this expression is a good thing that I like. I’m just not denying the reality of the fact that it happened. This is obviously true and also irrelevant to the point I was making. ---
**Author:** ![Snarky\_Kong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Snarky\_Kong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snarky_Kong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/112 "2022-06-30T04:03:02Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There is no parallel here, the word “feminist” is not inherently pejorative. “Race-mixer” then. It’s inherently pejorative and also objectively nothing wrong with it. “What’s wrong with being an incel?” - Well, actually a lot “What’s wrong with being a race-mixer?” - Nothing, but racists will hate you anyway. "What’s wrong with being an SJW? - Nothing, but incels will hate you anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/113 "2022-06-30T04:44:04Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > There is no parallel here, the word “feminist” is not inherently pejorative. And neither is “SJW”. My cite is that I describe myself as one. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/114 "2022-06-30T05:05:56Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > My cite is that I describe myself as one. Feel free to use words as idiosyncratically as you wish. I hope that reclaiming the word without pejorative connotation eventually takes hold. In the meantime, here are some actual cites: > **[Social justice warrior](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_justice_warrior)** > > Social justice warrior (SJW) is a pejorative term and internet meme mostly used for an individual who promotes socially progressive, left-wing or liberal views, including feminism, civil rights, gay and transgender rights, and multiculturalism. The accusation that somebody is an SJW carries implications that they are pursuing personal validation rather than any deep-seated conviction, and engaging in disingenuous arguments. > The phrase originated in the late 20th century as a neutral or positi... > **[Social Justice Warrior](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/social-justice-warrior)** > > Social Justice Warrior is a pejorative label applied to bloggers, activists and commentators who are prone to engage in lengthy and hostile debates against [https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/10/07/why-social-justice-warrior-a-gamergate-insult-is-now-a-dictionary-entry/](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-intersect/wp/2015/10/07/why-social-justice-warrior-a-gamergate-insult-is-now-a-dictionary-entry/) > **[Dictionary.com | Meanings & Definitions of English Words](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/social-justice-warrior)** > > The world's leading online dictionary: English definitions, synonyms, word origins, example sentences, word games, and more. A trusted authority for 25+ years! ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/115 "2022-06-30T06:37:51Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > They don’t think they are interesting, they think those women are dumpy gross trash and are still getting laid. That is the cosmic “unfairness” thay eats them alive. Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. I was using interesting in place of the F word . Yeah, they probably consider anyone not traditionally hot trash, and I bet they consider men who are with them losers. To put it another way, the guy who has SAT scores of 500 and only applies to Harvard, Yale and Princeton is probably not going to matriculate. But will probably call those school biased while saying the rest of the schools are trash. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 7:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/116 "2022-06-30T07:26:35Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Feel free to use words as idiosyncratically as you wish. I hope that reclaiming the word without pejorative connotation eventually takes hold. > > In the meantime, here are some actual cites I refuse to allow the worst elements of society to dictate how I can use words. Do we insist that you can’t call a carnival slide a helter-skelter because Charles Manson decided it meant “race war”? Does making a circle with one’s finger and thumb no longer mean “OK” because white supremacists started using it? If the alt-right on 4Chan tomorrow decide that “ACAB” now means “Aryan Chairman of American Brothers”, do those who use it as an anti-police slogan have to stop? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 7:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/117 "2022-06-30T07:52:10Z")
It depends both on how offensive the pejorative connotation is, and how widespread the usage. So, _just_ Manson using a word weirdly? No broader effect. Use freely. The OK symbol? I’d be careful when I used it - fine to indicate I’m all good on a scuba dive, not so fine to throw at a protest. Entire evil regime adopts your sun symbol of luck & prosperity and waves it over their genocide empire? You’re shit out of luck in taking that back in the West, ever. SJW is somewhere in the middle, but is it even _worth_ using? It wasn’t a term the people who work for social justice started using for themselves first, it was a (neutral) newspaper term. Personally, it just makes me think of White Knights, and also eco-nuts calling themselves [Rainbow Warriors](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legend_of_the_Rainbow_Warriors). But if you’re committed to calling yourself the name, freak freely. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/118 "2022-06-30T07:57:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > It wasn’t a term the people… started using for themselves first Neither was “deplorable” and they didn’t let that stop them. You wanna call me an SJW like it’s a bad thing? You’re damn right I’m an SJW. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/119 "2022-06-30T07:59:38Z")
Sure, I can totally see owning the label _when it is used against you pejoratively_. I was addressing preemptively using the label for yourself, absent the pejorative context. I’d prefer Social Justice Bard or Social Justice Warlock, myself… ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2022, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114/120 "2022-06-30T11:21:13Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Perhaps I misunderstood your comment. I was using interesting in place of the F word . Yeah, they probably consider anyone not traditionally hot trash, and I bet they consider men who are with them losers. > To put it another way, the guy who has SAT scores of 500 and only applies to Harvard, Yale and Princeton is probably not going to matriculate. But will probably call those school biased while saying the rest of the schools are trash. I think they often do try to get with women they thonk are beneath them, and when they “fail”, it makes the frustration even worse. Again, lots and lots of comparisons and ranking in that community, lots of self-contempt that translates to regular contempt for anyone they’ve calculated as “beneath” them, and rage when those guys seem to be doing better than them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-incels-vs-bad-incels/967114.md?page=7)