# Good movies with bad protagonists (open spoilers) **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** movies\ **Created:** [March 21, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357 "2021-03-21T18:21:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/61 "2021-03-24T03:50:40Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Heh, yeah, that was a typo. I guess I’m not clear if “Wanted: Dead or Alive” means “bring him back for a trial,” or “bring him back for a hanging.” I suspect, in practice, it amounts to the same thing, particularly in a West fictionalized by Quentin Tarantino. From _The Hateful Eight:_ > [@](#): > > Maj. Warren: So you takin’ her into Red Rock to hang? > > John Ruth: You bet. > > Maj. Warren: Gonna wait to watch it? > > John Ruth: You know I am. I wanna hear her neck snap with my own two ears… You never wait to watch 'em hang? > > Maj. Warren: My bounties never hang, 'cause I never bring 'em in alive. > > John Ruth: Never? > > Maj. Warren: Never ever. > > …But that, little lady, is why they call him “The Hangman.” When the handbill says DEAD OR ALIVE, the rest of us shoot ya in the back from up on top of a perch somewhere, bring ya in dead over a saddle. But when John Ruth The Hangman catches ya, you don’t die by a bullet in the back. When The Hangman catches you… you hang. ---
**Author:** ![SciFiSam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/47e85d/32.png) [@SciFiSam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SciFiSam)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/62 "2021-03-24T05:27:27Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I did specifically address conscripts in that post: I know. And I don’t expect you to provide cites for that, because it’s probably difficult to assess. Conscientious objectors in the UK were vilified - of course, maybe Nazi-era Germany was better, who knows, But you could say if most German soldiers during WWII, 1939-1945 or 1941-1945, depending on your country of origin, were actually volunteers. Nothing I’ve ever read would back that up. They wouldn’t have needed conscription if there were tons of volunteers. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/63 "2021-03-24T05:54:12Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > As I mentioned upthread, I don’t think this thread is really the place for an extended discussion of this issue. But I’ll just say that I don’t think I missed the point at all. I think the Basterds are bad protagonists. The scene in question had me rooting for the _German_ soldiers. It’s a lot of interesting discussion about _Inglorious Basterds_, but overlooking the fact that the film does not have a bad protagonist. Shosanna is the protaganist, her primary action is committing an act of war against the foreign invaders occupying her country who massacred her family. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/64 "2021-03-24T07:08:17Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > And AIUI, the penalties for refusing conscription weren’t particularly severe, so even the draftees are morally culpable. I think you’re mistaken about that. > **[Wehrkraftzersetzung](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wehrkraftzersetzung)** > > Wehrkraftzersetzung or Zersetzung der Wehrkraft (German for "undermining defence force") was a sedition offence in German military law during the Nazi Germany era from 1938 to 1945. > Wehrkraftzersetzung was enacted in 1938 by decree as Germany moved closer to World War II to suppress criticism of the Nazi Party and Wehrmacht leadership in the military, and in 1939, a second decree was issued extending the law to civilians.\[note 1\] Wehrkraftzersetzung consolidated and redefined paragraphs already... > Wehrkraftzersetzung consolidated and redefined paragraphs already in the military penal code to punish “seditious” acts ~~such as conscientious objection~~ , defeatist statements, self-mutilation, and questioning the Endsieg. Convictions were ~~punishable by the death penalty~~ , heavy sentences in military prisons, concentration camps, or Strafbataillons. > §5 of the KSSVO reads: > > Whoever openly challenges or incites others to refuse to fulfill their duty to serve in the German armed forces or their allies, or otherwise openly tries to self-assertively put up a fight to cripple or subvert the will of the German people or their allies … will be sentenced to death for undermining the military.   At least 15,000 German soldiers were executed for desertion alone, and up to 50,000 were killed for often minor acts of insubordination. [[cite](https://www.history.com/news/why-german-soldiers-dont-have-to-obey-orders)] ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/65 "2021-03-24T11:34:04Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > Though did you feel the same way about the protagonists in Saving Private Ryan (or, if you’ve seen it Brad Pitt’s character in Fury, which is somewhat similar to his character in Basterds) when they executed german prisoners? I keep saying that I don’t think this thread is the right place to discuss all of these issues. I’m also frankly not comfortable discussing the real world issues scenes like this dredge up for me on this board, in any forum. I’m just going to say, once again, that in my opinion, the Basterds are Bad Protagonists. Period. ---
**Author:** ![gdave](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gdave/32/3683_2.png) [@gdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gdave)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/66 "2021-03-24T11:36:53Z")
> [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > It’s a lot of interesting discussion about _Inglorious Basterds_ , but overlooking the fact that the film does not have a bad protagonist. Shosanna is the protaganist, her primary action is committing an act of war against the foreign invaders occupying her country who massacred her family. She’s _one_ of the protagonists. The Basterds are _also_ protagonists, and they are bad. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Burden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/958977/32.png) [@Jack\_Burden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Burden)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/67 "2021-03-24T13:28:02Z")
> [@gdave](#): > > > [@Jack\_Burden](#): > > > > It’s a lot of interesting discussion about _Inglorious Basterds_ , but overlooking the fact that the film does not have a bad protagonist. Shosanna is the protaganist, her primary action is committing an act of war against the foreign invaders occupying her country who massacred her family. > > She’s _one_ of the protagonists. The Basterds are _also_ protagonists, and they are bad True, but my read of the OP was looking for movies completely lacking in “good” protagonists. I’d also argue that Shosanna is the primary protagonist to the Basterds secondary role, although with Tarantino’s segmented story-telling style it may come down to which storyline resonates more with you. ---
**Author:** ![Labdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Labdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Labdad)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/68 "2021-03-24T14:24:49Z")
I’d say _A Clockwork Orange_ fits the bill perfectly. ---
**Author:** ![peccavi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peccavi/32/388_2.png) [@peccavi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peccavi)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/69 "2021-03-24T17:57:32Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > You just brought **The Conversation** to mind: Harry the surveillance expert sure does _act_ like he’s a dispassionate professional who just does his job and doesn’t bother with questions about who gets hurt; but, over the course of the movie, we see him show genuine concern when he realizes that, yet again, someone might get killed as a result of his latest efforts. And so, after struggling with his inner conflict over whether to intervene and what to do, he shows up to — well, nothing, really; it’s not so much that he tries and it doesn’t work out; it’s that, at the last moment, he doesn’t really try. > > (But, of course, don’t sympathize with the folks he thought about helping; you can’t make a case that _they’re_ the good protagonists, as it later turns out that they’re even worse than he is.) _“He’d kill us if he could”_ ---
**Author:** ![Lucas\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lucas_jackson/32/303_2.png) [@Lucas\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lucas_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/70 "2021-03-24T18:21:52Z")
> [@solost](#): > > In ‘to Live and Die in L.A.’ (1985), William Peterson’s character is a real bastard. Well, DeNiro’s character in Taxi Driver was no angel. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2021, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/71 "2021-03-24T19:00:25Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > …_The Long Riders_… Excellent choice. ---
**Author:** ![Sherrerd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sherrerd/32/8_2.png) [@Sherrerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sherrerd)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2021, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/72 "2021-03-25T00:39:07Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > > [@Sherrerd](#): > > > > Any movie classified as Noir is going to fit the criterion listed (a protagonist who isn’t fully sympathetic to the audience; who isn’t fully admirable). > > Not always. The protagonist of _Detour_ is definitely sympathetic: he’s trapped by a scheming woman. _Kansas City Confidential_ also has a sympathetic protagonist (though he pretends otherwise)? > > _Double Indemnity_, OTOH, has both leads being nasty people (though Walter regrets it in the end). I agree about _Double Indemnity_. About _Detour_: you’re certainly right that the woman is the main villain, but I’d argue that we lose some sympathy for the male protagonist when he’s so foolish as to offer a hitchhiker a ride. (Other noirs with the plot dependent on the main protagonist offering a ride to a hitchhiker: 1953’s _The Hitch-Hiker_ and the lesser-known 1955 _The Night Holds Terror_.) Audiences of the day may had the attitude that picking up hitchhikers was a noble act of pure kindness, but surely even they thought–however briefly–that the protagonists had been imprudent. (Today, of course, ‘picking up a hitchhiker’ would be seen as an act of recklessness, rather than as admirable charity or benevolence.) I haven’t yet seen _Kansas City Confidential_ (though apparently it’s in the public domain), but from the beginning of the wikipedia article, it looks as though you’re entirely correct about that one. Reading that opening of the plot summary I was reminded of _The Thomas Crown Affair_–the 1968 one, at least (I haven’t seen the remake). That’s another example of the thread-conditions: a good movie with morally-compromised (if not “bad”) protagonists. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/73 "2021-03-25T23:26:06Z")
_Primal Fear_: moviegoers showed up to watch Richard Gere play the kind of gun-for-hire lawyer who doesn’t care whether his clients are innocent or guilty — you know, the type who _does_ care about the money and publicity he gets when he gets someone off the hook, and, well, that’s pretty much it — but it was young unknown Edward Norton, as the stammering altar boy on trial for his life, who then wowed audiences to earn the Oscar nomination. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2021, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/74 "2021-03-25T23:46:34Z")
The animated movie _Suicide Squad-Hell To Pay_ not only fits in this category, but it has the added bonus of being ten times as good as the live action movie. ---
**Author:** ![River\_Hippie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/river_hippie/32/26_2.png) [@River\_Hippie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/River_Hippie)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2021, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/75 "2021-03-26T00:27:09Z")
Mention upthread of Charlize Theron and **Monster** reminded me of another film she was in. She played a thoroughly detestable character and as I recall, no redemption. Not sure how many people saw this as I don’t see it mentioned often. Maybe not a _great_ movie, hard to watch in that the viewer (this one anyway) is in a near constant state of cringe at the protagonist’s appalling behavior but I thought Theron was very good in it. > **[Young Adult (2011) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1625346/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0)** > > Young Adult: Directed by Jason Reitman. With Charlize Theron, Patton Oswalt, Patrick Wilson, Elizabeth Reaser. Soon after her divorce, a fiction writer returns to her home in small-town Minnesota, looking to rekindle a romance with her ex-boyfriend,... ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2021, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/76 "2021-03-27T14:42:11Z")
It’s pretty easy to root for the charming crooks in The Sting, as they’re up against _a bad guy_: in best can’t-con-an-honest-man style, the big swindle only works if _he_ thinks that _he’s_ got an unfair edge — you know, per the earlier quip after Paul Newman outcheats him to win at the poker table? And, okay, Newman also tasked someone with pickpocketing the guy; but said guy had already tasked someone with _murder_, so, y’know, we can nod approvingly. Newman and Redford were maybe just as charming as Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid, but — well, they’re robbing folks who just seem to be decent people, aren’t they? Just stealing by pointing guns at ‘em, is all — and maybe someone gets banged up during this or that train robbery, but, hey, whadayagonnado? And all of it leads to an ending where our heroes decide to go out, guns blazing, against the authorities — only I don’t recall any hint that this is a _‘corrupt cops’_ scenario; it seems more like a _‘see, this is a legitimate reason to put faces on ‘Wanted’ posters’_ scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Defensive\_Indifference](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/defensive_indifference/32/6502_2.png) [@Defensive\_Indifference](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Defensive_Indifference)\ **Post date:** [March 27, 2021, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/77 "2021-03-27T15:32:14Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Newman and Redford were maybe just as charming as Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid, but — well, they’re robbing folks who just seem to be decent people, aren’t they? Just stealing by pointing guns at ‘em, is all — and maybe someone gets banged up during this or that train robbery, but, hey, whadayagonnado? And all of it leads to an ending where our heroes decide to go out, guns blazing, against the authorities — only I don’t recall any hint that this is a _‘corrupt cops’_ scenario; it seems more like a _‘see, this is a legitimate reason to put faces on ‘Wanted’ posters’_ scenario. Those are both good examples. One of the things I love about Butch Cassidy… is how it starts off as a comedy but by the time they kill the Bolivian bandits and Etta goes back, it’s a drama. Only, the protagonists don’t know it’s a drama. They think they can still slip away with a few wisecracks. “For a moment there I thought we were in trouble.” ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/78 "2021-03-30T03:39:44Z")
**Henry: Portrait of a Serial Killer**. Henry’s only redeeming feature was that he was less icky than Ottis, even though he had a much higher body count. This had the most confusing distribution of any movie I know of: It was first released on video, then puled and released in art house theaters. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/79 "2021-03-30T19:55:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > But “same treatment as an actual Nazi” still doesn’t extend to torture and gratuitous murder, and the actions of the Basterds were definitely out of line. They weren’t, actually. They were performing their mission, which was to disrupt the Germany Army through a campaign of fear by guerilla warfare. Also, they were not in a position to take prisoners. Every German soldier they left alive would return to a German unit that would be trying to kill them, Allied Soldiers, Jews and other victims of the Nazis. Remember _Saving private Ryan_? When they opted not kill the German machine-gunner? He joined up with another unit and ended up killing Mellish and shooting Miller. German soldiers that were spared had to give information, then wear the scar. Or, they could follow Hugo Stiglitz’s lead. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2021, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357/80 "2021-03-30T20:03:15Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > Every German soldier they left alive would return to a German unit that would be trying to kill them, Allied Soldiers, Jews and other victims of the Nazis. “We had to kill him, otherwise he’d still be a danger to us,” stops working as an excuse when you’re only killing some prisoners, and letting others go. If they can’t afford to let the guy they beat to death go, then they can’t afford to let the guy they mutilated go. If they can afford to let the mutilated guy go, they can afford to let the guy they beat to death go. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-movies-with-bad-protagonists-open-spoilers/938357.md?page=5)