# Good naked, bad naked, men, women, short shorts, long shorts, and swimwear **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2000, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687 "2000-12-08T21:18:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/1 "2000-12-08T21:18:37Z")
There was a Seinfeld episode where Jerry feels uncomfortable because his girlfriend spends her time nude when indoors. To give her a dose of her own medicine, so to speak, he decides to try it himself, but then his girl says, "That’s not ‘good’ naked. Elaine later concludes that naked isn’t a good look for a guy…i.e. the female body is a beautiful work of art, while the male body is ugly and should be covered up. Is there any truth to this? Is that why men’s shorts, bathing suits, and the like usually go down past the knees, while women routinely go around comparatively nude in their bikinis, short-shorts, and so on? It has to be cultural and not a direct result of the differences in anatomy. There’s a tribe in the South Seas where the male nudity taboo is very strict…it’s just that only the penis itself needs to be covered, not even the 'nads. To say nothing of everywhere else. And what are the implications regarding gender relations in a culture where the nudity taboo is applied so much more severely to men than women? I’m talking from an American perspective here. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/2 "2000-12-08T21:39:28Z")
I’m guessing the answers you get will vary from poster to poster. Without attaching a value to either opinion, I would guess that Esprix and me would have much different standards.🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Gundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Gundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gundy)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/3 "2000-12-08T21:59:45Z")
The naked male body makes me laugh. Peniseseses are very funny to see - particularly from behind, if the guy’s bending over, and you see testicles and penis a-swanging. Even if the guy is an Adonis, this makes me laugh. On the other hand, a nude curvy female figure is always a beautiful thing to me. I dunno - less stuff hanging out = better aesthetics to me, I guess. Looking at how lovingly Michaelangelo sculpted “David”, however, I have to say there is a good male naked too. Back to the OP, what about the shirtless issues? Guys can go shirtless with nary a sidelong glance. Women…well, you know. Other than that, the two parts that can be exposed without ridicule in women but not in men are the midriff and the upper thighs. Why is this? No idea. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/4 "2000-12-08T22:15:52Z")
A point often missed in the nudity discussion is that nudity isn’t about showing off your good body or your bad body, it’s about the freedom to move around without clothes; the freedom to feel nothing but sunlight and wind on your skin; the joy of being intimately connected with your surrounding enviroment. The artistic appeal is trivial consideration to the matter. In the States, the nudity issue is also tied up with sexuality. Here we think **nudity = sex** , as if being nude is sexual invitation. Therefore, only people with perfect bodies should go nude. Again the whole point of nudity is missed in that **nude DOES NOT EQUAL sex**. Nudity is simply being without clothes, not a sexual invitation. Neither I or my partner have “beautiful bodies” as judged by contemporary standards. At home we’re nudists, simply for the joy of being nude, not for the sake of showing off our figures. And in a climate like Austin, TX during the summer, it’s almost a necessity. ---
**Author:** ![burundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3ec8ea/32.png) [@burundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burundi)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/5 "2000-12-08T22:22:04Z")
I’m with Gundy. I like men (rather a lot), but they are kinda funny looking when nekkid. Nekkid women, though, of all shapes and sizes…yum! ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/6 "2000-12-08T22:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gundy \* > \*\*The naked male body makes me laugh. Peniseseses are very funny to see - particularly from behind, if the guy’s bending over, and you see testicles and penis a-swanging. Even if the guy is an Adonis, this makes me laugh. > On the other hand, a nude curvy female figure is always a beautiful thing to me. I dunno - less stuff hanging out = better aesthetics to me, I guess. > > Looking at how lovingly Michaelangelo sculpted “David”, however, I have to say there is a good male naked too. > > Back to the OP, what about the shirtless issues? Guys can go shirtless with nary a sidelong glance. Women…well, you know. Other than that, the two parts that can be exposed without ridicule in women but not in men are the midriff and the upper thighs. Why is this? No idea. \*\* My point exactly. And men can’t really go around shirtless in everyday life; it’s just at the beach or poolside that we get to do that. Notwithstanding the variations in what each gender is allowed to show–and I’m using the term _allowed_ with a grain of salt–if you take the total square “inchage” of bare skin, women go far beyond men. Strictly speaking, I realize it’s a slight exaggeration to say that men or women are _allowed_ this or that, but for men, if we feel we have to fit in, or be hip and fashionable, then we can’t really buck the trend. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2000, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/7 "2000-12-08T22:49:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by burundi \* > \*\*I’m with Gundy. I like men (rather a lot), but they are kinda funny looking when nekkid. Nekkid women, though, of all shapes and sizes…yum! \*\* Are you and Gundy male? Of course I’d much rather look at women too, but that’s usually the case with men. I don’t think it implies that, considered objectively, men are uglier (though we probably do tend to take less care of our appearance, weight, etc., then women do, and then if we get flabby then maybe there’s something to Elaine’s contention). ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/9 "2000-12-10T14:25:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Compass \* > \*\*I think she dyed her hair. Both places. > \*\* But did she spray it with perfume? ---
**Author:** ![Anachronism](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e56c9b/32.png) [@Anachronism](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anachronism)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/10 "2000-12-10T15:19:02Z")
To quote Elaine from the same episode (From Memory) “Men are utilitarian, like jeeps.” She ends it with something like “they are not meant to be looked at” IMO the ‘Ideal’ (I know this is subjective) female form (Large breasts, Slim, Narrow Waist, Soft Skin, Etc.) is not very useful for survival or physical work. But it is great to look at. The ‘Ideal’ male form (Muscular, tough skin, Etc.) is very useful for survival and work, but not very attractive. ---
**Author:** ![dwala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@dwala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dwala)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2000, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/11 "2000-12-10T21:53:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > My point exactly. And men can’t really go around shirtless > in everyday life; it’s just at the beach or poolside that we get to do that. Beach, poolside, or South by Gawd Carolina. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/12 "2000-12-11T04:44:17Z")
Tolerance of nudity is completely a cultural matter, and our culture (American macro-culture, that is) is so uptight as to be constipated. My guess is that if we could relax a bit more, ignore the Serlin-esque rants, and enjoyed the wide variety of body shapes in men and women, we’d be a lot healthier for it. ---
**Author:** ![Gundy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Gundy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gundy)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/13 "2000-12-11T16:41:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by burundi \* > > \*\*I’m with Gundy. I like men (rather a lot), but they are kinda funny looking when nekkid. Nekkid women, though, of all shapes and sizes…yum! \*\* > > Are you and Gundy male? \\*\* Are you asking about gender or orientation? FTR, I’m female. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2000, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/14 "2000-12-11T19:43:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gundy \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by javaman \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by burundi \* > > > \*\*I’m with Gundy. I like men (rather a lot), but they are kinda funny looking when nekkid. Nekkid women, though, of all shapes and sizes…yum! \*\* > > > > Are you and Gundy male? \\*\* > > Are you asking about gender or orientation? FTR, I’m female. \*\* I guess I really meant orientation, (on the assumption that a straight man or a lesbian woman would both tend to derive more pleasure from viewing the female body). Though I don’t think it’s necessarily true that a heterosexual woman would prefer to look at a naked man. Obviously the “Elaine” character didn’t, and she’s presumably straight. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/15 "2000-12-14T20:33:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gundy \* > \*\* > Back to the OP, what about the shirtless issues? Guys can go shirtless with nary a sidelong glance. Women…well, you know. Other than that, the two parts that can be exposed without ridicule in women but not in men are the midriff and the upper thighs. Why is this? No idea. \*\* My guess, regarding the midriff issue, is that for so many of us men the midriff is an eyesore, what with spare tires, love handles, etc. With thighs it’s a tougher call, especially since we didn’t always used to be so damn modest. A lot of guys used to wear much shorter trunks, shorts, etc. in the 1970’s–remember those Op shorts? And for working out or running most guys wore short nylon Adidas type shorts pretty much like what the women wore at the time. It’s not like you’ll be hooted out of the gym if you show up wearing those today, but they’re so rare nowadays you’d have to find a place to buy them first. You know what I think really started the change? It was when Bill Clinton first appeared on the scene wearing those old fashioned short running shorts. A lot of people joked about it, perhaps because he was definitely on the flabby, untanned side! ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mermaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a183cd/32.png) [@The\_Mermaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mermaid)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2000, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/16 "2000-12-14T23:07:08Z")
I think the whole point of the show was that some _activities_ were better suited for nudity that others. For me reclining on my side with my legs positioned just so and my breasts supported while I fan my self with a maribou-edged fan is good naked. Performing dental hygiene, ear cleaning, pubic nairing, hair dyeing and toenail clipping are all bad naked. Performing the last three activities simultaneously (as is my usual custom)is REALLY bad naked ---
**Author:** ![Noodlegirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/fbc32d/32.png) [@Noodlegirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Noodlegirl)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/17 "2000-12-15T00:22:57Z")
hmmm…There really is nothing quite as shocking as being directly behind your naked, male SO when he decides to bend over to pick up something. That’s more than one needs to see! It’s like a great dane with a thyroid condition snuck in the house… –ng ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/18 "2000-12-15T02:58:16Z")
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I remember reading (a long time ago) about a culture, an aborigine tribe either in Africa or in one of the Pacific Islands, whose idea of beauty would shock us: fat is beautiful. It’s hard for me to believe that anyone would think that, but I’ve been brought up in a different culture. Is beauty an ideal that exists apart from subjective opinion? Apparently from that, and from the quote from the poem, it is not. I don’t think Plato would agree. I’m sure he would have found the ideal “beauty” existing in another world, and we can only see the shadows of it here on Earth; but, he would say, it objectively exists. Well, he was an idiot. As far as short running shorts go, I have quite a selection and it is very easy to find them. Look at any running catalog. I don’t know if I should name names, but I order a lot from _Road Runners Sports_, which has, as I said, quite a selection. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/19 "2000-12-15T20:33:39Z")
Maybe I am weird, but I am a straight female, and I definitely think the female body is MUCH nicer to look at than the male. I guess I attribute it to two things: It’s easy for men to be unattractive. In women, there’s always some way you can see them that they are attractive. Secondly, Women’s bodies just seem more… artistic. ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2000, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/20 "2000-12-16T07:24:01Z")
As a hetero male, my opinion is that most men seen nude are about as beautiful as mongrel dogs. You can have very good looking buff guys, especially teens, but the range of what’s beautiful is much narrower for men than for women. Most guys are either too skinny, too fat, or just generally too skanky looking. A woman has to be really ugly before she’s actively offensive to the eye. As for nudity in general, I prefer for nudity to be reserved as a clear and unambiguous signal of intent. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [March 1, 2019, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/good-naked-bad-naked-men-women-short-shorts-long-shorts-and-swimwear/44687/23 "2019-03-01T16:24:22Z")
If you were born when this thread was posted, you would now be old enough to legally get naked with any consenting adult of your choosing.